Representation in Culture: Women

[shadyJ]

Poppy Z Brite is another famous horror author(ess).

One thing to consider is that women statistically may not be predisposed to horror (of course there are exceptions) as much as men. What if they simply have a stronger aversion to horror as a basic psychological predilection? If so, it will never be a genre where there is a parity of women voices to men. If that is the case, women will never be portrayed fairly in horror. It could be that simple.

As for misogyny in slasher movies, I think, on the whole, women are portrayed very poorly in that subgenre. But you have to remember that the heyday of slashers were in the late 70s and 80s. Women were rarely portrayed well in any genre of any kind of movie. Misogyny was by no means unique to slasher films.

[adamhenderson]

shadyJ, you have raised some interesting points.

It is easy to say that women are presented well in slasher films because it is always a female character that survives at the end, but if we take into consideration the well worn trope that only the virgin survives in the end of most horror movies, it does raise some interesting implications with regards to sexism. The ultimate subconscious suggestion of a film like 'Halloween' is that women who don't have sex and focus on their academics are smarter than the supposed 'bimbos' who don't care for academics and have promiscuous sex.

[shadyJ]

Originally Posted by adamhenderson

shadyJ, you have raised some interesting points.

It is easy to say that women are presented well in slasher films because it is always a female character that survives at the end, but if we take into consideration the well worn trope that only the virgin survives in the end of most horror movies, it does raise some interesting implications with regards to sexism. The ultimate subconscious suggestion of a film like 'Halloween' is that women who don't have sex and focus on their academics are smarter than the supposed 'bimbos' who don't care for academics and have promiscuous sex.

Until slasher movies started to become more self-aware (thanks largely to Scream), it used to be the virginal girl that survived, NOT because the filmakers were trying to present a feminine strength, but because it catered to a fantasy archetype for males. In these stories, the ideal woman preserves her life by preserving her purity. You might think of the killer as an avatar for that element in the male psyche which judges and damns those woman which it can not wholly own. Once a female character has 'given' herself (by which I mean her innocence and her honor, etc) to someone else in the story, she must be destroyed for squandering that which is most precious.

For these same reasons, victims of rape must also die in so many movies. Rarely in an older film (and even in many recent movies) will you see a rape victim survive. However, the death of the raped woman is usually treated as a tragic necessity, whereas the murder of a promiscuous woman is treated with glee. But willing or unwilling, their fate must be the same; in the contest of manhood, someone else has claimed that prize, so she must be destroyed as a penalty of that defeat.

Of course, this is all very barbaric, but I believe it really is the reasons for the writer's decisions in these stories, subconscious or otherwise. And these reasons are ample cause for horror in themselves; nothing is more terrifying than the landscape of the naked male psyche.

[Kandarian Demon]

Originally Posted by shadyJ

Poppy Z Brite is another famous horror author(ess).

One thing to consider is that women statistically may not be predisposed to horror (of course there are exceptions) as much as men. What if they simply have a stronger aversion to horror as a basic psychological predilection? If so, it will never be a genre where there is a parity of women voices to men. If that is the case, women will never be portrayed fairly in horror. It could be that simple.

I think there might be some truth in that (and I say that as a woman who loves horror) - but in my own experience (and that is of course ONLY my experience), for a lot of woman, being a horror fan is just not "feminine", and I suspect that that is the main reason why we don't see any more woman in horror - more than a psychological thing.

Both genders have things they just don't do (in general) - men probably a bit more than woman, but we certainly have them too. Those things that we just can't do, because we wouldn't be "real men" or "real woman".

These ideas are supported by the reactions that we get from others when we break those unwritten rules - and those reactions come from both our own gender and from the opposite.

For example, I as a horror fan have often been judged by other woman. But it's also my experience that being a female horror fan scares off a lot of guys.

The thing is, I could mention a few things that would cause the same reactions for a man - from other men as well as from woman. I really, honestly don't think it's mysogyny, it's not just something that affects woman - we just tend to focus more on it when it does.

It's a difficult balance, though - because one thing is equality, but I really don't agree with the view that the two genders are the same - even though that's a very popular idea right now, and something that I actually used to agree with.

[Kandarian Demon]

Originally Posted by adamhenderson

It is easy to say that women are presented well in slasher films because it is always a female character that survives at the end, but if we take into consideration the well worn trope that only the virgin survives in the end of most horror movies, it does raise some interesting implications with regards to sexism. The ultimate subconscious suggestion of a film like 'Halloween' is that women who don't have sex and focus on their academics are smarter than the supposed 'bimbos' who don't care for academics and have promiscuous sex.

Although I can honestly only recall a handful of movies where that is actually the case - isn't that more of a religious thing? I mean, even people who are not religious are often more or less influenced by the religion of the society they have grown up in.

Look at all our prophets, or a character like the Virgin Mary. Look at all of our celibate priests, nuns and monks... So many of the holy characters and people that we are more or less raised to look up to, or even follow as our leaders, are virgins or at least celibate. I think it goes much deeper than just gender.

And again - are our male movie heroes any less stereotypical?

[Sculpt]

Originally Posted by shadyJ

Until slasher movies started to become more self-aware (thanks largely to Scream), it used to be the virginal girl that survived, NOT because the filmakers were trying to present a feminine strength, but because it catered to a fantasy archetype for males. In these stories, the ideal woman preserves her life by preserving her purity. You might think of the killer as an avatar for that element in the male psyche which judges and damns those woman which it can not wholly own. Once a female character has 'given' herself (by which I mean her innocence and her honor, etc) to someone else in the story, she must be destroyed for squandering that which is most precious.

For these same reasons, victims of rape must also die in so many movies. Rarely in an older film (and even in many recent movies) will you see a rape victim survive. However, the death of the raped woman is usually treated as a tragic necessity, whereas the murder of a promiscuous woman is treated with glee. But willing or unwilling, their fate must be the same; in the contest of manhood, someone else has claimed that prize, so she must be destroyed as a penalty of that defeat.

Of course, this is all very barbaric, but I believe it really is the reasons for the writer's decisions in these stories, subconscious or otherwise. And these reasons are ample cause for horror in themselves; nothing is more terrifying than the landscape of the naked male psyche.

Thanks, Shady, I had never thought about it that way -- that the promiscuous women are killed off because they are women the male viewer cannot wholly own, women who have squandered their purity that is precious to a male both in a procreative-evolutionary and psyche-intimate-holy sense. It, the male (even human) subconscious or the Freud "ID" (from ID, Ego, Super-ego), is sweeping through the film doing what it does, which I would think would be quite evocative.

Shady, did you conceive of this yourself? If not, where did you hear it from? Did one of the slasher films speak of it, like Victor Miller?

[Sculpt]

Originally Posted by Kandarian Demon

For example, I as a horror fan have often been judged by other woman. But it's also my experience that being a female horror fan scares off a lot of guys.

The thing is, I could mention a few things that would cause the same reactions for a man - from other men as well as from woman. I really, honestly don't think it's mysogyny, it's not just something that affects woman - we just tend to focus more on it when it does.

You have me curious. What are a few things that would cause the same reactions for a man?

[shadyJ]

Originally Posted by Sculpt

Thanks, Shady, I had never thought about it that way -- that the promiscuous women are killed off because they are women the male viewer cannot wholly own, women who have squandered their purity that is precious to a male both in a procreative-evolutionary and psyche-intimate-holy sense. It, the male (even human) subconscious or the Freud "ID" (from ID, Ego, Super-ego), is sweeping through the film doing what it does, which I would think would be quite evocative.

Shady, did you conceive of this yourself? If not, where did you hear it from? Did one of the slasher films speak of it, like Victor Miller?

When you view stories as maps of the subconscious, it seems like a a very plain analysis to me, and I am sure I am not the first to think of slasher movies in those terms. From a psychoanalytic perspective, slasher movies are probably an easy interpretation. And, in a broader view, much of horror stems from 'monsters of the Id'. Graphic murders in these scenarios are usually forms of wish-fulfillment; the greater offense to the ego corresponds to a more gruesome death. These themes are by no means confined to horror, they are just more apparent in horror because the anxieties are typically manifest in a more defined, concrete form in horror, ie a monster or murderer.

[Kandarian Demon]

Originally Posted by Sculpt

You have me curious. What are a few things that would cause the same reactions for a man?

Well, just to give you one example, and it's a "real life" example - a couple of years back, I knew a guy from work - totally straight, by the way - who happened to be what you would probably call "metrosexual". It goes back to what you were talking about earlier, about the "feminine" man. And more than anything, his passion was designing, sowing and knitting clothes.

The guys were really nasty to him - the woman seemed to like him, but did to some extend participate in the jokes behind his back. And I know from a conversation that I had with him, that he had a really hard time finding woman who would actually date him. Ironically - he turned my offer down when I asked him out, because he was looking for someone more "feminine" :D

[adamhenderson]

Awesome discussion going on people!

In these stories, the ideal woman preserves her life by preserving her purity. You might think of the killer as an avatar for that element in the male psyche which judges and damns those woman which it can not wholly own. Once a female character has 'given' herself (by which I mean her innocence and her honor, etc) to someone else in the story, she must be destroyed for squandering that which is most precious.

ShadyJ, I think you just might be dead-on correct here. Superb analysis of slasher films. I also loved this line:

nothing is more terrifying than the landscape of the naked male psyche.

The best horror speaks to us on a primal level, and not just a flight or fight level, but on a deep subconscious level where our animal instincts lie, and it's this kind of analysis that we need more of. You don't have a blog do you? I'd follow it in a heart-beat!

The guys were really nasty to him - the woman seemed to like him, but did to some extend participate in the jokes behind his back. And I know from a conversation that I had with him, that he had a really hard time finding woman who would actually date him. Ironically - he turned my offer down when I asked him out, because he was looking for someone more "feminine"

Yeah it is interesting how all that works. See I would have thought that his natural proclivity towards feminine hobbies would be a massive 'in' for him in regards to success with the ladies. I didn't think women rejected men for being too feminine in the same way that men rejected women for being too masculine (I thought women were somehow less shallow in that regard).

I myself was raised pretty much by my mother (my father was largely absent in my life) and I think that I've got feminine qualities (such as understanding and nurturing attitudies-- which is why I'm a primary school teacher), but I'm really self-conscious of appearing too feminine and so modify my speech to be more masculine (especially in a school setting for some reason).

I have a girlfriend, and she seems to enjoy having sex with me, so I don't know, I'm doing something right. Maybe its a fine line with these matters.

----

Okay how about this:

I've been dabbling with writing horror fiction for the last few months (massive Stephen King fan, but I want to write a bit more subversively than him), and I've come up with an idea for a novel that is a subversion of the slasher movie.

Instead of a male killer, the killer is a woman, and instead of women dying for being promiscuous, men are killed for only valuing women for their visual appearance. I wanted the female killer to be a Kathy-Bates-in-Misery type character.

Is it too on the nose, do you think?