US Politics

[TheWickerFan]

Originally Posted by bwind22

If the government gets out of line and no one has guns, there's nothing to keep them in check.

That's exactly the sort of scary talk that puts the rest of the world on edge about us Americans.

[bwind22]

This country was founded via a violent revolution. It's what makes us American.

[scouse mac]

Originally Posted by bwind22

Yeah, lets take away the freedom of speech, assembly, press and petition while we're at it. Matter of fact, who needs any of the Bill of Rights? I don't see any reason soldiers shouldn't be able to barge in and take over my home, the cops shouldn't be able to search and seize my property without a warrant, the legal system requires a trial by jury or cruel and unusual punishment is illegal anyway. /sarcasm

In the UK we have freedom of speech, assembly, press & petition and the complete lack of guns. No-one is bothered by this.

However, if police came into your home without a warrant your first thought would be to shoot them? I know this probably isnt true ;) but it could be interpreted that way.

the right to bear arms is guaranteed by our 2nd amendment. Not only is it right there in the Bill of Rights, it's pretty close to the top of the list (2nd) which means our founding fathers thought it was pretty darn important.

Surely that was when us Brits were just kicked out and the new country needed all its citizens to be ready in case we tried again. Im fairly confident this wont be happening soon....

There are several reasons beyond it being a guaranteed freedom, that banning guns would be a horrible idea. First and foremost is that there are already millions of them in circulation, some registered, some not. Trying to collect them all would not only be a logistical nightmare, it'd be impossible.

This would be nightmare true, there would have to be a bastard long amnesty in order for people to hand over their guns (they've had similar amnestys here in the UK with great success). Im not suggesting this is something that could be done in a short period of time but over five years, ten years? Why not?

Sorry Scouse, not to sound like a dick

You dont, you clearly feel strongly about this which is something I just dont get. The world will keep turning either way.

[bwind22]

Originally Posted by scouse mac

In the UK we have freedom of speech, assembly, press & petition and the complete lack of guns. No-one is bothered by this.

If someone were to start taking away the rights you do have though, you may have an issue with it. (At least, I hope you would.) In the US we have the right to bear arms and if someone threatens to take away that right, I have a huge problem with that.

Now that being said, I'm not opposed to rules and regulations pertaining to gun ownership. We have some of those in place. (Felons can not own guns, certain guns are not legal, etc...) There's a big difference between a rancher with a rifle or tax-paying stand-up citizen owning a glock (the most affordable and user friendly handgun, which is probably why they were such a hot item when idiots feared an immediate moratorium on gun sales.) to keep in their home for protection and some 17 year old gangbanger in Detroit with an Uzi. Huge difference.

However, if police came into your home without a warrant your first thought would be to shoot them? I know this probably isnt true ;) but it could be interpreted that way.

This is actually a pretty loaded question. The police can't come in my home without a warrant. If they did, they'd be violating my civil rights. Would I shoot them? In general, no. But if it's a crooked cop breaking in to my home to rape my wife or hurt my kid, you'd better believe it.

Surely that was when us Brits were just kicked out and the new country needed all its citizens to be ready in case we tried again. Im fairly confident this wont be happening soon....

There is no disclaimer attached to it. We have the right to keep and bear arms. Simple as that. Doesn't matter if the government has a military or the Brits don't plan on attacking us. It is one of the 10 basic freedoms this country was founded on.

This would be nightmare true, there would have to be a bastard long amnesty in order for people to hand over their guns (they've had similar amnestys here in the UK with great success). Im not suggesting this is something that could be done in a short period of time but over five years, ten years? Why not?

Moving past the fact that ownership is in our BIll of Rights, because the only people that would actually turn in their weapons would be the law abiding citizens that aren't the problem in the first place. Most gun owning thugs and gangsters obtained theirs illegally anyway, why would they go hand them over to the cops when there's no record of them having one to begin with? All that would do is disarm the good people who would only shoot another person if they or their family was in legit danger.

You dont, you clearly feel strongly about this which is something I just dont get. The world will keep turning either way.

Good, glad I'm not coming off like a total asshole. I just strongly disagree with government revoking any of the rights set forth by our founding fathers and when someone suggests it as a good option, I feel like it's only fair to offer a rebuttal.

[TheWickerFan]

Originally Posted by bwind22

If someone were to start taking away the rights you do have though, you may have an issue with it.

If anything, most of Europe fight harder for their rights and privileges.This is what happened in Britain when they tried to raise tuition fees:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvOJn2LUPy4

[Despare]

Originally Posted by TheWickerFan

It probably comes as no surprise that I disagree with you. I hate guns, and think we would be better off without them. The 'only the criminals will have guns' argument doesn't hold water when you study other countries that have banned guns.

It also doesn't help that this country is a violent one. Comparing the instances of death by firearms in the UK, Canada, and the U.S.A.:

Canada (firearms are legal) - 144
UK (firearms are illegal) - 14
USA - 9,369

Uhhhh ok, but you're just looking at guns.

CRIME PER CAPITA

# 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people
# 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
# 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
# 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
# 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
# 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
# 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
# 9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people
# 10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people
# 11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people
# 12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people


WHAT!? More crime in the UK!? Heavens to betsy...

[TheWickerFan]

Originally Posted by Despare

Uhhhh ok, but you're just looking at guns.

CRIME PER CAPITA

# 1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people
# 2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
# 3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
# 4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
# 5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
# 6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
# 7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
# 9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people
# 10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people
# 11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people
# 12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people


WHAT!? More crime in the UK!? Heavens to betsy...

Of course I was looking at guns; that's what we were discussing.

Murder rate by firearms per capita:

USA - 0.0279271 per 1,000 people (#8)
Canada - 0.00502972 per 1,000 people (#20)
UK - 0.00102579 per 1,000 people (#32)

The Brits do seem to be pretty violent, so I hate to think what their murder rate would be if you armed them. The Canadians, however, seem to be considerably less violent. Gun ownership is legal and very common, and yet their murder by firearms rate is significantly lower. That's what I meant about our country being a violent one.

[Despare]

Originally Posted by TheWickerFan

Of course I was looking at guns; that's what we were discussing.

Murder rate by firearms per capita:

USA - 0.0279271 per 1,000 people (#8)
Canada - 0.00502972 per 1,000 people (#20)
UK - 0.00102579 per 1,000 people (#32)

The Brits do seem to be pretty violent, so I hate to think what their murder rate would be if you armed them. The Canadians, however, seem to be considerably less violent. Gun ownership is legal and very common, and yet their murder by firearms rate is significantly lower. That's what I meant about our country being a violent one.

Right but you're looking at countries who don't even allow them, that's like saying most cooking accidents occur in the kitchen.

Alright, if you just want to talk about guns how many gun crimes in the USA are committed with a legal firearm? I know the FBI listed in a report that 98% of crimes against officers involved an illegal gun. Not only that but 'legal' guns are used 2.5 million times a year to properly and lawfully protect citizens.
Go through the FBI's crime statistics and guess what, almost all gun crime in the USA is committed with an illegally obtained or possessed firearm.

Look at the gun ownership in Switzerland, they have a large amount of guns and VERY little crime. The answer is teaching responsible gun ownership NOT simply taking them away.

[TheWickerFan]

Originally Posted by Despare

Right but you're looking at countries who don't even allow them, that's like saying most cooking accidents occur in the kitchen.

Alright, if you just want to talk about guns how many gun crimes in the USA are committed with a legal firearm? I know the FBI listed in a report that 98% of crimes against officers involved an illegal gun. Not only that but 'legal' guns are used 2.5 million times a year to properly and lawfully protect citizens.
Go through the FBI's crime statistics and guess what, almost all gun crime in the USA is committed with an illegally obtained or possessed firearm.

Look at the gun ownership in Switzerland, they have a large amount of guns and VERY little crime. The answer is teaching responsible gun ownership NOT simply taking them away.

Yes, I pointed out Canada which has plenty of firearms, but they don't seem as prone to blowing each other away as we are. Much like Britain, we're quite aggressive, and the ready availability of guns exacerbates the situation.

As for teaching responsible gun ownership, it clearly isn't working in this country. There are approximately 1,500 deaths by accidents involving firearms per year. A recent example:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27399337/ns/us_news-life/

[Despare]

Originally Posted by TheWickerFan

Yes, I pointed out Canada which has plenty of firearms, but they don't seem as prone to blowing each other away as we are. Much like Britain, we're quite aggressive, and the ready availability of guns exacerbates the situation.

As for teaching responsible gun ownership, it clearly isn't working in this country. There are approximately 1,500 deaths by accidents involving firearms per year. A recent example:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27399337/ns/us_news-life/

You can't just take something away from all of the people because there are so many idiots out there. The one thing I think needs to be cracked down on is gun sales... gun shows, pawn shops, and the like are just terrible and so many illegal firearms are purchased there. If we regulated the sale of firearms properly and trained the people using them there would be no issue. Simply disarming the citizens though, it's not the answer, and trust me... shit would hit the fan if it was tried.