And your next Top 100 compilation is...

[Despare]

Originally Posted by neverending

Of course I enjoy being challenged, educated and enlightened by art. I keep getting reminded time and again that many people don't care for that. They just want to see things explode.

Maybe others simply weren't as "challenged" by other flicks as you were, especially if you take into consideration when they saw a film and what they may have seen first. No need to be condescending. The whole concept of subjective taste seems to be foreign to you, as if there's a formula used to separate the greatness of one film from the next.

[Giganticface]

Originally Posted by neverending

Can we not enjoy a film because of its artistry?

I didn't say you couldn't. In fact, I believe part of my point was that a few folks, including you, probably will determine your favorites by their quality as an art form.

I think I'm realizing that the biggest challenge for me is that 95% or more of the films I watch probably would not qualify for this list. The ones I enjoy the most do tend to be of the more challenging variety, not that I think that's a requirement to make it a good film: Martyrs, Requiem for a Dream, Donnie Darko, Lars von Trier films. I even considered leaving Trainspotting off the list because I didn't want to have to debate whether or not the hallucinatory horror and terrible situations would qualify it as "half horror." Point being, I don't get too excited about my capaciity for artistic appreciation being dumbed down to whether or not it had enough explosions. All I'm really saying is that outside the realm of horrificish films, half of my top 20 is going to just be films I've watched a bunch of times over my lifetime, and not all of these are terribly challenging or artistic.

[The Villain]

This is great, we haven't even started yet and look at all the debate and conversation. This is going to be incredible when we get into it. Really looking forward to all the inevitable arguing over someones favorite movie not deserving to be in the list and likewise. I love it when we have some good threads here and everyone gets involved.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Despare

Maybe others simply weren't as "challenged" by other flicks as you were, especially if you take into consideration when they saw a film and what they may have seen first. No need to be condescending. The whole concept of subjective taste seems to be foreign to you, as if there's a formula used to separate the greatness of one film from the next.

You know it's too late for me to change.


Besides, with so many hereabouts proclaiming their abhorrence of film as art, somebody has to stand up for Artistic Standards amidst all this Artistic Relativism.

[_____V_____]

A film doesn't impress me if it's laden with explosions, for the record.

As far as artistry goes, 2001: A Space Odyssey can be put forth as an example of cinematic artistry at it's finest. Regular viewers often lament about it's slow pace and confusing visuals but for me, it's the finest example of cinematic creativity anyone has put forth till now. That doesn't mean I rank it above The Godfather - it's just in a different plane of cinematic existence for me.

I have met people who swear by Citizen Kane, Casablanca, Gone With The Wind, etc., but I am sorry folks, those films don't make the cut for me. I would rather have Rashomon, Vertigo, To Kill A Mockingbird, etc., at my disposal.

Each one of us is unique, and has his/her own separate tastes. I don't expect anyone else to love Mockingbird as much as I did (and still do), or Glengarry Glen Ross, or Platoon or even A Few Good Men. Those are my choices and I stand by them, and if you ask me reasons then I can give you 20 or more.

Others may hail The Remains of the Day as a true cinematic masterpiece, but the fact remains that I fell asleep 15-20 minutes into the film. Never popped it back in, since.

On the other hand, I love the heck out of films such as Stand by Me, Serendipity, A Night at the Roxbury, The Goonies, etc., but do I consider them my Top 20 material? Nope.

The Godfather by the way was made by Francis Ford Coppola. And in Coppola's case, I rank Apocalypse Now as his finest film till date, and yes, I rank it above The Godfather and it's sequels. Scorcese is the man behind Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, Goodfellas, After Hours, Gangs of New York, Hugo, Shutter Island, etc.

[neverending]

I always get those two mixed up.

I blame senility!

[Giganticface]

Those are great examples, V. I like your approach. The only thing I think is unfortunate (although I don’t necessarily disagree) is that films like Night at the Roxbury and The Goonies are automatically ruled out, purely due to their less-advanced nature. Admittedly, it would be a near-impossible challenge to debate that one of those is “better” than 2001: A Space Odyssey, but if in your mind Roxbury is the best in it’s class of slapstick comedies, then it ought to get some credit somehow.

Unfortunately, I think by not breaking our submissions up by genres, entire categories of film will be neglected, purely because the class of movie doesn’t compete at an artistic level. It’s the same reason a horror film has never won Best Picture, and a slapstick comedy has no chance of even being considered for nomination. The Academy and film schools alike have their own definitions of what should and shouldn't garner respect. Even Charlie Chaplin — lauded as one of the great pioneers — was never even nominated for Best Picture. I personally feel that modern slapstick classics like The Jerk or Caddyshack deserve mention on a top 100 non-horror list, but unfortunately they’re not likely to make anybody's top 20 “best film” lists, thus will be ruled out from the get-go.

Even if we did attempt to form this list based on the artistic quality of the films, “artistry” is a concept that will never be agreed upon. Critics are constantly torn between judging technical prowess vs. raw creativity -- two very different, and often competing, concepts, not just in film, but in all art forms. I don’t technically know much about film, other than what I read on the internet and watch in documentaries, and don’t have any experience or education in the field like some in this forum do. But as an analogy, I do have some education in music (6 credits shy of a music minor, I didn’t want to delay graduation to finish). That education -- which included music theory, history, recording techniques, sound synthesis, some random stuff like world music and the history of rock, and of course, actually learning how to play instruments -- gives me some ability to judge music performances and recordings at an academic level. If this were a music forum, I *could* do that, but I probably wouldn’t just because those aren’t the qualities in music as an art form that I hold dear. Instead, I’d rather talk about how Joy Division, who could barely play their instruments, deconstructed rock in a way that opened the door to a baser form of music. Or how the members of Tortoise, from their post-hardcore perspective, flipped jazz on its side, helping to create a brand new subgenre. Those artists, and many of the ones I love the most, were ripped by mainstream critics during their time, and even in retrospect, are unlikely to ever get a high-profile music award. Point being, even if we could separate ourselves from our personal favorites, everyone has their own means by which they judge a film’s quality, and those standards will never be agreed upon.

I think this process would be less debatable, and probably more accurate, if we called this list “HDC’s Top 100 Non-Horror Favorites.” Nobody can really argue with whether or not someone does or does not like a movie, but they certainly can pontificate over what, in their minds, constitutes artistic merit. Besides, if someone were to stumble upon this list, it might actually be interesting for them to discover non-horror films that horror fans like. Otherwise, it’s just another attempted rehash of the “best” movies of all time, and probably one that’s going to be weighted towards genres that horror fans are drawn to.

[Straker]

Originally Posted by The Villain

This is great, we haven't even started yet and look at all the debate and conversation. This is going to be incredible when we get into it. Really looking forward to all the inevitable arguing over someones favorite movie not deserving to be in the list and likewise. I love it when we have some good threads here and everyone gets involved.

Agreed, its always fun and good to have these type of debates, even if sometimes people end up sat on opposite sides of the fence now and then.

Originally Posted by _____V_____

Each one of us is unique, and has his/her own separate tastes. I don't expect anyone else to love Mockingbird as much as I did (and still do), or Glengarry Glen Ross, or Platoon or even A Few Good Men. Those are my choices and I stand by them, and if you ask me reasons then I can give you 20 or more.

Its nice to see Glengarry Glenn Ross make the final cut of someone's list. I expected to be the only person who had that movie in their top 20 and was all geared up to get behind it in a bid to win a few extra votes, for what is, a beautiful character study with some phenomenal acting performances.

Most of the movies that made my list are drama/ character study as that's the type of movie I tend to enjoy. To be honest, I wouldn't consider my list particularly inclusive of all genres and styles or even that varied. There are a couple of flicks that I would back that most of you guys will probably consider 'arty', pretentious, cliché and boring, but I can live with that and will give them my full backing if I think I can sneak any of them into the final cut. But then again, I will just as happily be backing Spinal Tap.

I would still like to reserve the right to be a whiney little bitch if Happy Gilmore makes the cut though. :danger:

[Giganticface]

Spinal Tap is on my list. :)

I'd really love to see everyone's lists at some point. For me that's almost as much fun as debating the final overall list. The films a person loves says something about their personality, and it's cool that we have a diverse group around here.

I may have spent some credibility capital by revealing my Happy Gilmore vote to make a point (which I wouldn't actually back during debate), but I feel no shame about the rest of my list. Besides a few sci-fi/adventure classics, a spaghetti western, Spinal Tap and Gilmore, mine's mostly dramas too: an indie musical romance, a few indie dramas, a big budget Soderbergh drama, and a sci-fi drama. I actually stayed away from great films like 2001 A Space Odyssey and Taxi Driver because I thought they were a little too close to horror.

Should be a lot of fun no matter what.

[Kandarian Demon]

Originally Posted by Giganticface

Spinal Tap is on my list. :)

I'd really love to see everyone's lists at some point. For me that's almost as much fun as debating the final overall list. The films a person loves says something about their personality, and it's cool that we have a diverse group around here.

I may have spent some credibility capital by revealing my Happy Gilmore vote to make a point (which I wouldn't actually back during debate), but I feel no shame about the rest of my list. Besides a few sci-fi/adventure classics, a spaghetti western, Spinal Tap and Gilmore, mine's mostly dramas too: an indie musical romance, a few indie dramas, a big budget Soderbergh drama, and a sci-fi drama. I actually stayed away from great films like 2001 A Space Odyssey and Taxi Driver because I thought they were a little too close to horror.

Should be a lot of fun no matter what.

I've often been told that my taste in movies other than horror is a bit surprising, knowing that I AM mostly a horror movie fanatic. But maybe it's only surprising to non-horror fans, who sometimes have very stereotypical expectations about what "we" are like, usually based on misconceptions about the horror genre itself.

I'm curious to find out what movies we're all into