Bush or Kerry

[Stingy Jack]

Originally posted by yourlastmistake
VOD VOD VOD VOD VOD,
Most of the people in the military these days are there to pay for college? Let me ask you? Is that from personal experience? You have alot of buddies that joined the military for that reason? I seriously doubt it. Everybody joins the military for different reasons. I joined the Army because I didn't want to go to college.I was sick and tired of school but I didn't want to sit around and do nothing with my life. MARINES are some of the most patriotic people in the world.I think most of them would take offense to that remark.For what reasons did you join the military?

You lived in Europe for 9 years.How old were you? Just curious. You can speak for the majority of Europe? Who doesn't have a dislike for America. When the rest of the world seems so dependent on us.It goes with the territory. I am not so arrogant as to not think that Britain and even China are superpowers.

Since I'm the only one that compared the Democrats to Socialist you must be referring to me. Democracy in it most extreme form is Socialism. The Democrats want you to have to rely on them for everything. Their answer to everything is taxation.Take from the rich and give to the poor.Socialized health care. What's next? Being told where to work,where to live?

He used coke and got a drunk driving charge. You've never done any drugs?You've never drank to get drunk? At least he's got the balls to admit it. Unlike that turd Clinton.......I did not inhale......I did not have sexual relations with that woman.Sat right on nation TV and told me to my face.He must think Americans are stupid.I took that as a personal insult.
I never said I was a PRO-LIFER.But I don't think abortion should be used a means of birth control. War is sometimes necessary. I don't think anybody will deny that Saddam is an evil man.

Your right, Congress is our tool. The president is our figurehead and its important to the morale of this nation how he's viewed.

I'm not totally happy how Bush has handled the whole situation.I think we jumped into this war in Iraq too soon after Afghanistan.I'm an independent thinker too.I don't blame 9/11 on Iraq. This is the war on terrorism. All those middle eastern countries have ties to terrorism. And to think that none of Iraqis neighboring countries weren't grateful. I bet Iran and Kuwait were.The war on terrorism is world wide Vod. Not just the middle east.


Like I said, I'm not crazy about Bush but you know what? I'm more scared of Kerry.

Its been along day................. I"ll tell you why Iater.





.

Wait, wait, wait. You call Democrats "Socialists" because, as you say, "democracy in its most extreme form is Socialism". Okay .... well, since A Republic in its most extreme form is facism, do you mind if I call you a facist?

And I would say that Democracy in its most extreme form isn't Socialism ... maybe Communism?

[yourlastmistake]

Communism/Socialism call it anything you want. For that matter you can call me anything you want. Did you see Edwards speech last night? I thought I was going to puke. The democrats are going to save the world. First he says he's going to give working mothers and the rich tax cuts then he says the democrats are going to take care of the poor and the middle class. Like i said they want Americans to be dependent on the democratic govt. Where is all this money going to come from............. oh yeah.........
we'll just raise taxes. You people call yourselves free thinkers.Do you really believe everything you hear ?

[Vodstok]

You take the good with the bad with the republicans, how can you look down on others for doing the same?

I am sick of the "How can you know what EVERYONE else is thinking"... Obviously i dont. If i did, i would be defeating your arguments before you made them.

I was 16 when i left europe. a lot of things may change in 12 years, but not everything. Again, I asked Gothic Chick this: Have eiether of you spent any time in another country? I wasnt there on vacation, I was LIVING there, off the economy. Hellfire can tell you what that is like, she is doing it right now.

I never joined the military. that was an off-handed remark. Sorry i didnt specify that, but i was making a point: in the last 10 years, we havent had AS MANY people joining simply to be patriotic. My fiances sister joined the Navy because she wanted to do something good with her life. It must be genetic, because my fiance wants to be a cop.

They are both very admirable. However, michelle (my soon to be sister in law) was engaged to someone who joined because HIS PARENTS didnt want him to go to college. Simple as that. they wanted him in the military, he went. He doesnt want to be there, but he is doing his job, because now he feels he is stuck.

I apologise if i offended you because you joined for the right reason. My hat is off to you (really). I just wanted to point out that the motivation for serving the country has changed for many people. They didnt expect a war, and i know of people who thought "Oh shit, this wasnt supposed to happen". Well, thats what they get for taking that oath.

I havent heard of one that has backed down from the challenge, though, So initial motivation aside, it seems most are good people.

But then, I'm generalising again. Maybe i am wrong, i cant know what they are all thinking.

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
Notice how the Bush-supporters never seem to want to comment on the fact that Bush fucked up the educational system in the US. I guess if you don't talk about it, it'll go away?

Just remember Stingy, you asked for this......

I didn't comment on it because I know that the state of education is NOT George Bush's fault. There was a problem with it long before Bush was elected president. He's just trying to come up with a solution.


Accountability for failing schools sounds great to me... A new way to teach seems to be a good start for those teachers who are letting kids pass when they don't know how to spell.

And of course local control is a good thing too. supplemental educational services for kids in under achieving schools is another great idea.

I'm not big on the testing ( some very smart people choke on tests) but then again...With the results , teachers can craft lessons for kids who need help in certain areas. Seems this plan may help change some of the parents out there who pay no attention to their kids education .

And if I remember correctly, didn't federal school funding jump up 60% or something close to that?

I'm not a teacher so I really can't comment much on that aspect. Although if I were I wouldn't dare assume all teachers in all schools felt the same way I did.

The teachers I have talked to in my kids schools about it are very happy with Bush's no child left behind act. With the exception of a 3rd grade teacher who was very concerned with the stress level of her students the day of their testing. Turned out they all passed.


I do care about what's happening in my kids schools. I have met teachers who have no business teaching and I have met teachers that will undoubtedly leave a positive lasting impression on the kids they teach. I'd really like to see them weeded out for sure. And I'd like to see smaller classrooms and give teachers the option of refusing to teach kids who are constantly interrupting the learning process.

that's about it for this Bush supporter.......

[Gothic-chick]

Originally posted by Vodstok
That was wonderfully lucid and calm gothic :)

Can we say that we agree to disagree? There is always SOME common ground :D

Absolutely!

[Stingy Jack]

Okay, in response to yourlastmistake, I believe I posted way back somewhere that there are some issues that I tend to sway Republican on (I'm not a die-hard Democrat), and one of those issues is welfare reform -- and most other economic issues. But, I get mired down in my feelings particularly when it comes to the area of taxes.

There are two types of taxes in this nation: progressive and regressive.

Progressive tax: The tax percentage is figured according to your income (the rich pay more on a progressive tax, the poor pay less).

Regressive tax: The tax is a fixed percentage regardless of your income (sales tax).

On the one hand, I would say that progressive taxes are unfair. Why should you be forced to pay more simply because you have more money?

Then, I would say that regressive taxes are unfair. It is hard for some people in this nation to buy food, but we tax them on food just as much as we tax people who have no problems buying food.

I understand that the rich may or not "deserve" their money. That is not for us to say, as long as they got it honestly. The fact is, though, that we can't ALL be rich. In fact, the distribution of wealth in this nation is like a pyramid, with the highest percentage of the population at the bottom and the smallest at the top. Unfortunately, the wealth is distributed exactly the opposite, with the greatest amount of money being at the top and the least amount at the bottom. And the only way that the folks at the bottom can get any of the wealth at the top is through the "trickle-down" method of taxes. The rich pay a lot in taxes, and the poorest of the poor get massive returns.

I can't help but wonder why the rich complain so much when they are taxed more and the poor are taxed less. It's as if they don't want the wealth going ANYWHERE, especially to the poor, working people who keep this nation operating. But, then again, I can't say: "You should pay more taxes! Help out the nation, help our poor, working-class people!" What they should do with their money is not for us to say. It is their money, after all.

But, the rich will say: "Look, my family worked hard to amass this wealth, and I worked hard to build on it. If you want WEALTH in this country, you have to work for it!" I argue with this as well. Nobody works harder in this nation than the working class. And it certainly isn't that difficult to build on your wealth once you have it. Just invest it and let it accrue intrest.

So, I would like to hear some thoughts on taxes in the nation. This would help me really decide where I need to go with this. Should I resort to utilitarianism with this issue as well? Taxing the rich more so that more can go to the poor seems like the lesser of the two evils (the other being to give the rich tax breaks, and keep our regressive taxes fully as they are. Personally, I would like to see the nation take regressive taxes off of necessities like food. Tax the nation for their food? That's almost evil.)

[Stingy Jack]

Gothic-Chick: Accountability in failing schools is a horrible idea. Especially when that accountability is put on the faculty and administration. A large percentage of our failing schools are failing because they serve low-income, poverty areas. The kids from these households have a completely different set of values than you or I, and, unfortunately, education figures in very low on this list of values. Most of them figure that they aren't going to get a decent job anyway (which is true), so why bother busting your ass to get a good education? And, unfortunately, you can't get it into these kids that education is more than just preparing for a good job, and that getting a good job is the smallest value of a good education. You can't tell them that. Believe me, I have tried.

Accountability should be heaviest on the student and on the parent of the student. Most parent-teacher nights, I will sit there for three hours, failing kids all over the place in my gradebook, and maybe three parents will come through my door, all of them parents of passing children. Sad, but true.

And you're right, high-stakes testing is horrible as well. For one, standardized tests do little to show all that the child has learned. They test to see if the child can remember facts. That is all. But you also raised a good point when you said that you have known very smart people choke on tests. This is true! The higher the stakes, the more stress is involved, the worse the student is going to do. Plain and simple. We can keep lowering the bar on these tests, but doing that just defeats the whole purpose of administering the test to begin with!

And I agree that the state of education in this country was pretty bad before Bush intervened, but I'm afraid his "solution" made it worse. The top educators and education professionals in the nation tried to inform him on the pointlessness of his act, but he just couldn't see it.

When he was elected, one of my English Ed. professors at the University came to class wearing all black, as if in mourning. He knew Bush would screw it up, and he did.

[Vodstok]

Growing up in Department Oof Defense schools, i had to take CTBS standardised tests my whole childhood. They blew a week on those things every year. I always scored extremely high, especially in English and Science, but they never did anything, as far as i can tell.

I caught a lot of shit from my parents because my scores didnt really reflect my grades. I was smarter than my grades would indicate. Yes, i was very apathetic towards school. i learned more on my own, anyway.

I'm not sure what my point was, but all i ever saw as a result of these tests was arrogant smart kids and slower kids with even less self esteem.

[HappyCamper]

Originally posted by meetthecreeper
Sorry about the Rant I really dislike politcians in general, especially the 2 party system.

Hey we all have to rant at times! I agree with you 100% , i fucking HATE politicians! And I hate that we ONLY have 2 choices! I'm registered as a Libertarian, unfortunately I think this country is a long ways away from a third party ever getting elected. Even though the particular party i'm registered with has increased in numbers by 1/4 % over the last four years.

[Arioch]

He used coke and got a drunk driving charge. You've never done any drugs?

Ya but IM not running for president:rolleyes:

I will respond to the rest of your points when im not multitasking to this degree....but i HAD to address that right there....