Representation in Culture: Women

[ferretchucker]

SO, as V recently took a step back with a view to having some new ideas crop up, I thought it might be fun to spark up some regular debates. For the time being I was thinking of looking at representations of different social groups within contemporary pop culture (music, film, art whatever)

Now, I thought I might as well start with women. No, this is hardly a new debate and yes, we in particular have had years of the "women in horror" discussions. Still, let's give it a go.

Of course - debate etiquette. By all means argue passionately but not personally. Keep it friendly, kids ;)

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I think my issue with this topic is that there is never and will never be a "solution". There is NO true, good, without-problem depiction of a woman possible in a film because the very nature of the art naturally leaves it open to interpretation.

Take Ripley, for example. Generally speaking she's thought of as a pretty good, unharmful, should-be-more-like-this woman of film. She begins the film with moderate power and is shown to be more intelligent than her superiors, and by no means passive. She survives to the end using her ingenuity and lives on to kick more ass in the future. So great, she's a wonderful woman of film! No damsel in distress, doesn't depend on a man, doesn't back down from arguments.

BUT, there is the counter argument that she is only powerful because she is masculinised. The qualities that ultimately save her and stop her from being subjugated are those typically associated with men. Even her clothes and make-up lack the typical (hate to use that word but can't think of a better one) femininity. Hell, the character WAS a man in the script! Just replacing the "him" with "her"s in the script doesn't make her a good woman, it makes her a man played by a woman...doesn't it?

This is my issue. The problem isn't that women supposedly only have power when they are made to be like men, the problem is that we as a culture have an image of a "standard man" and we can't get past it. Besides the physical aspects, we have this notion that qualities of sternness, emotional strength, willingness to fight etc. are "manly" qualities rather than just qualities that a person could have.

Granted, this IS how men have been portrayed in culture for years, but maybe if we just stopped talking about it as an aspect of being "male", we'd no longer think of it that way.

THEN there's the tin of worms Miley has opened. Is she objectifying herself, prostituting her body to appease the male fantasy in order to be loved and have worth - is she GIVING herself to men OR is she using her body to gain power over them? Who has the power?

In all honesty, I don't know. I just don't. I will not for a second deny that there isn't an awful lot of inherent sexism in our culture today and of course, there are the historical aspects of it - things that have stuck within the discourses of film. But equally I think a lot of the issue is that we keep on talking about it, poking holes and tearing apart any female figure for all of the "bad" ways she is depicting women. Is it always about gender? Could we equally not read Miley Cyrus' new persona as a harrowing idea of Americans or youths or all of the other social categories she fits into? Aren't people sometimes just people?

And only now do I realise the irony of my argument: "We all need to stop talking about sexism so much...so let's talk about sexism."

[Kandarian Demon]

Interesting debate :)

Well... I have a feeling I'm about to get in trouble :D

I'm a woman - who happens to be an anti-feminist, and very tired of the sexism debates. Not that I'm saying that sexism doesn't exist - although I am of the opinion that it goes both ways.

But I'm incredibly tired of how these "strong, independent woman" feels the need to whine and complain until they get their way - the protection they say they don't need - no matter how woman are portrayed in art and in the media. If there's not enough woman, they complain - if there is, they complain about how they're portrayed.

I agree with you - whatever they do to when they portray woman, it will be viewed as sexism. It's a game you just can't win.

Did anyone ever say "I really don't think it's ok how so many men are killed and tortured in horror movies and video games"? No... nobody even thinks about it, because that's what happens in a horror movie... people die! And although I don't have an actual statistic to prove my claim, I would say that far more male characters are victimized in horror movies. More often than not, the last survivor, the hero, is a woman.

I've also noticed how woman tend to get very excited when male characters - or even men in real life - have their private parts mutilated in one way or another."Teeth" was a COMEDY about a vagina with teeth, and I know for a fact that a lot of woman LOVED it. I don't recall that anyone ever questioned if the theme of the movie was ok or not... but I am pretty sure that if the story had been about a man who had the ability to mutilate the vaginas of woman... well, that movie would probably never have been made, would it!

And when it comes to the "objectification" of woman, uhh... what about all the girls who would eat Justin Bieber alive if he didn't have security? We have plenty of "eye candy" too, and it's socially acceptable for us to be very open and honest about it too. Men would be labelled as "sexist pigs" if they talked about female celebrities the way us girls talk about our male idols.

You can draw a parallel to how a man is a "pig who takes advantage of young woman" if he is in a loving relationship with a younger woman - but an older woman who is very open about how she picks up young men for sex? She's not an old pig, she's not taking advantage of anyone... she's a liberated, modern woman... a "cougar", a heroine, and she might even get her own reality show!

I know, I know... a typical argument is that "it's different because woman have it so hard"... but I find that a very, very bad excuse for having double standards.

I agree with you that "our" idea of what a "real man" or a "real hero" is, is pretty ridiculous - and I really see that as a form of sexism too. You guys seem to be stuck in a very stereotypical role, and at the same time, "we" woman can't make up our minds... one minute you have to be superheroes, and the next, you get bashed for being "cavemen". "Equality" is completely on our terms, and can be twisted and turned around whenever it's convenient for us.

Again, as a woman, I have to say this in response to how you described Ripley... as someone who "doesn't need a man" - what's wrong with needing a man sometimes? It's nature, and in many ways it's logical, as you are generally stronger than we are (with some expections), and are usually better at keeping a cool head. I'm not ashamed to say that I feel safer in the company of a man. It bothers me that us more "old-fashioned" woman are looked down upon in the name of "womans rights", and no matter what we say to defend ourselves, we're either "traitors" or "so brainwashed that we don't even know how much we really hate it". Where's my free choice, that's what I would like to know... I hate that feminists have taken away my right to be a woman, in the way that is feels right and natural for me. And I hate that they have the right to target me for trying anyway. I hate that when I speak my mind, they have the right to shut me up, to ban me, to delete me.

When woman whine about horror movies, video games etc. - when they want stuff banned, or scold and boycot the companies and creators for creating and releasing the material... what they don't realise is that what they're REALLY saying is "we're woman, we're so weak that we need protection from the media and from pop culture, and we need to have special rights"...

With true equality, we wouldn't give it a second thought. It's a horror movie - we're all equal - we'll all get killed :D

And I probably will be now, haha :D

[Sculpt]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think you are seeing things exactly as they are. In my understanding, there are masculine and feminine characteristics with men and women. They are very good. And I don't want to erase or blur them. Still loving people is the top priority.

Let me go ahead and continue with the topic we've percolated to the top which is gender issues, in and out of film.

I saw Alien a few times before I heard the role was written for a man. I still don't notice a difference. For the most part, I enjoy people "being themselves", as long as that doesn't include being immoral, unnecessarily hurting, taking advantage, lying and bullying people, whatever their sex.

As a Twentieth Century Western man, I suppose it's rather normal for me to accept women being 'tomboys' - enjoying things men do, joining men in most all activities, expecting to be treated with respect and fairly, and being assertive. I've heard sometimes it's other women who reject that more often. Of course, part of that may also be what I'm used to, and what I prefer.

At the same time, I don't know that I'll ever be comfortable with a women having a position of authority over me. I don't like it. I deal with the best I can. Although I didn't make all the rules of my society, I want my female loved ones to have the right to do any sort of moral work they want, are led to do, are good at. And so, that means at work, there may be a woman with authority over me. I demand every supervisor treat me with respect, but I no doubt am more sensitive to a woman abusing the authority by treating me with disrespect.

Generally speaking, I'm more uncomfortable with a man acting feminine. Why that's the case is good to consider and resolve; however I must act properly regardless. Compassion and moral reason keep my attitude and actions in righteousness -- that is, being loving: compassionate, respectful, accepting and willing to get to know and befriend. My source of love comes from God, and moral understanding from God/Christ/Bible/christian teaching. I've received learning from many sources.

In any film, I don't like seeing a woman threatened, scared, injured, raped, killed, etc, but neither do a like seeing it done to anyone/anything. But it's certainly possible I'm less tolerant of cruelty to those more innocent, children, animals, weaker, etc, and women. It's my duty to protect them. In film, I understand it's part of the story that has a narrative, it's going somewhere. I don't particularly like any story that isn't beneficial in some way. And so, if any film or story is merely cruelty, to anyone/anything, as some form of entertainment, I don't like it, and I'm not going to 'consume' nor accept it. There really isn't a gender issue there for me.

Ever since I was an adult, I didn't like gratuitous sexual nudity activity, for it's own sake, unnecessary for the story, in horror, or any film. That's also true for gore or violence. Anything detracting from the story annoys me. Objectifying anyone, when it's removing or diminishing their humanity, whether sexually or otherwise, male or female, is not a good thing. When it's done, we diminish ourselves and our loved ones, and corrupt our own character.

In a horror film, the story may require we understand something is killing people. Traditionally, it then affects the main characters. If the film doesn't have me care about the characters, it's a poorer film for it.

[Kandarian Demon]

Originally Posted by Sculpt

As a Twentieth Century Western man, I suppose it's rather normal for me to accept women being 'tomboys' - enjoying things men do, joining men in most all activities, expecting to be treated with respect and fairly, and being assertive.

I can tell you from experience that that is very true! My theory - and it's only a theory - is that some woman feel threatened by another woman who is able to be "one of the guys", and see it as an unfair advantage (although believe me, being a tomboy is NOT the way to get a date!).

I also suspect that maybe, even if it's subconsiously, that is what bothers some of you guys who have a problem with feminine men, as you talked about in your post. I had a male friend once who was very effeminate. I didn't have the boundaries with him that I would normally have in the company of a man. We even shared a bed on a few occasions.

And I experienced on several occasions that men threatened or harrased him when we were walking down the street together - but more often than not, they seemed to be in a rage because I was by his side, and it seemed very important for them to point out to me that they were real men and he was not.

[Straker]

Originally Posted by Sculpt

At the same time, I don't know that I'll ever be comfortable with a women having a position of authority over me. I don't like it.

That's kind've sad to be honest.... Besides, sometimes it can be fun. :cool:

Originally Posted by Sculpt

Generally speaking, I'm more uncomfortable with a man acting feminine.

Why would you care either way how 'feminine' other men act as long as they aren't acting inappropriately towards you?

Originally Posted by Sculpt

In any film, I don't like seeing a woman threatened, scared, injured, raped, killed, etc, but neither do a like seeing it done to anyone/anything. But it's certainly possible I'm less tolerant of cruelty to those more innocent, children, animals, weaker, etc, and women.

Usually in movies you aren't supposed to enjoy a rape scene, are you?

The other themes are all common in the horror genre too. I'm a little surprised you are able to watch horror movies at all considering a large proportion of them involve people being scared, injured, intimidated and killed at some point.

As for the actual topic, the main problem with society in general stems from a lack of positive female role models. The horror genre has always been fairly progressive in that regard, in that there are plenty of good examples of positive female characters. Obviously there are exceptions, but compared to other genres where you see a wide array of vacuous female characters who simply can't exist inside a movie without a male character, horror is probably ahead of the curve.

[Sculpt]

Originally Posted by Kandarian Demon

I can tell you from experience that that is very true! My theory - and it's only a theory - is that some woman feel threatened by another woman who is able to be "one of the guys", and see it as an unfair advantage (although believe me, being a tomboy is NOT the way to get a date!).

I also suspect that maybe, even if it's subconsiously, that is what bothers some of you guys who have a problem with feminine men, as you talked about in your post. I had a male friend once who was very effeminate. I didn't have the boundaries with him that I would normally have in the company of a man. We even shared a bed on a few occasions.

And I experienced on several occasions that men threatened or harrased him when we were walking down the street together - but more often than not, they seemed to be in a rage because I was by his side, and it seemed very important for them to point out to me that they were real men and he was not.

Interesting. I've never harassed a guy with a girl, boyfriend/girlfriend or otherwise. I don't have any desire to. That's not one of my faults.

Being envious or jealous of a feminine guy enjoying the company of a woman I'd like to have company with? I don't doubt I've experienced that. Again, I wouldn't threaten or harass a dude because of it. If they're not dating, then I really wouldn't care. I know how to be a friend, and I know there's an aspect of 'friend' that is the kiss of death to being 'more than friends'. If I just want to be friends with a woman, I don't feel restrained in pursuing that.

[Sculpt]

Originally Posted by Straker

That's kind've sad to be honest.... Besides, sometimes it can be fun. :cool:

Why would you care either way how 'feminine' other men act as long as they aren't acting inappropriately towards you?

Usually in movies you aren't supposed to enjoy a rape scene, are you?

The other themes are all common in the horror genre too. I'm a little surprised you are able to watch horror movies at all considering a large proportion of them involve people being scared, injured, intimidated and killed at some point.

I think I answered all those questions in my post already, or to a large extent, but I'll take them up anew.

In the case of a women having authority over me, I suppose it's sad if I have a problem with any human having authority over me, but I do, men and women. I think it's very human. I'd rather be resistant to authority with discernment, as opposed to a blind follower. As I said, I think it's heightened with a woman, but I know it, admit it, examine it, and I deal with it properly. I actually doubt anyone even knows. That's success with weakness.

Why would I even care if a man acted feminine? Again, I have some thoughtful ideas, and working those I've made concrete progress in renewing my mind, but people have to go father than that. I espouse 'know thyself', but that's only helpful. I decide to love and respect people regardless of my feelings. Not perfectly, of course. But I try to constantly watch and recognize my 'reflex' thoughts and feelings, and then exercise self control. I'm not dependent on what I'm used to, how I was raised, what I think I know, subconscious whims and feelings. I hope that makes sense.

As I said in my post, in a horror film, if people dying, being in peril and being scared is part of the story, and moves the story, I'm OK with that. I said I don't like films where that's all there is (like gore porn). Horror films, even if they seem 'supernatural', are about dealing with the truth, facing fear, suffering, sacrifice, defending, rescuing, redemption and changing. That's what I like about Horror film and all kinds of stories stories.

[Kandarian Demon]

Originally Posted by Sculpt

Interesting. I've never harassed a guy with a girl, boyfriend/girlfriend or otherwise. I don't have any desire to. That's not one of my faults.

Being envious or jealous of a feminine guy enjoying the company of a woman I'd like to have company with? I don't doubt I've experienced that. Again, I wouldn't threaten or harass a dude because of it. If they're not dating, then I really wouldn't care.

But are you saying that if they WERE dating, you WOULD care? (I get that you wouldn't harm anyone for it, just wondering what you meant)

Originally Posted by Sculpt

As I said in my post, in a horror film, if people dying, being in peril and being scared is part of the story, and moves the story, I'm OK with that. I said I don't like films where that's all there is (like gore porn).

I think I get what you mean - I think I've said several times in several threads that I'm not a fan of the extreme "torture porn" genre. I can watch it, but it disturbs me in a way that I don't enjoy... luckily, there are a million other movies to watch... and I don't mind gore at all, it's just that particular category of movies that I don't enjoy much.

BUT... the gender of the victims in those movies really don't make a difference to me. I don't think that it's degrading or harmful to woman that there are female characters in those movies. Woman are not a minority that needs special protection - and even if they were, that wouldn't automatically make it a problem when a female character gets killed or tortured.

I think this comparison might make it easier to understand what I'm trying to explain:

If there's two things I absolutely can't stand in this world, it's racism and homophobia. I absolutely do not tolerate it.

But I am not going to scream "discrimination!" simply because a coloured or gay character is hurt in a horror movie. I would be more worried if there were no characters like that at all.

I would have a problem if it was clearly the directors intention that I should find the characters pain/death amusing or somehow morally justified BECAUSE that character was gay or non-white - or if the character was somehow being ridiculed during the scene for being what he or she happens to be, through the use of stereotypes, for example. I've seen this happen in a few movies, and THAT offended me.

I hope this made some sense...

[Straker]

Originally Posted by Sculpt

I'd rather be resistant to authority with discernment, as opposed to a blind follower.

It's not an either or situation though, you can respect authority, regardless of gender, without being a blind follower...

[Sculpt]

Originally Posted by Kandarian Demon

But are you saying that if they WERE dating, you WOULD care? (I get that you wouldn't harm anyone for it, just wondering what you meant)



I think I get what you mean - I think I've said several times in several threads that I'm not a fan of the extreme "torture porn" genre. I can watch it, but it disturbs me in a way that I don't enjoy... luckily, there are a million other movies to watch... and I don't mind gore at all, it's just that particular category of movies that I don't enjoy much.

BUT... the gender of the victims in those movies really don't make a difference to me. I don't think that it's degrading or harmful to woman that there are female characters in those movies. Woman are not a minority that needs special protection - and even if they were, that wouldn't automatically make it a problem when a female character gets killed or tortured.

I think this comparison might make it easier to understand what I'm trying to explain:

If there's two things I absolutely can't stand in this world, it's racism and homophobia. I absolutely do not tolerate it.

But I am not going to scream "discrimination!" simply because a coloured or gay character is hurt in a horror movie. I would be more worried if there were no characters like that at all.

I would have a problem if it was clearly the directors intention that I should find the characters pain/death amusing or somehow morally justified BECAUSE that character was gay or non-white - or if the character was somehow being ridiculed during the scene for being what he or she happens to be, through the use of stereotypes, for example. I've seen this happen in a few movies, and THAT offended me.

I hope this made some sense...

If I saw an effeminate male dating a woman I found attractive, would I care? No, I wouldn't care anymore than if he was a masculine guy. In both cases, if they were attached to me for some reason, I might involuntarily eat my heart out, but then consciously watch and learn.

Everything you've wrote makes sense to me. It also offends me if it was clearly the directors intention that I should find the characters pain/death amusing or somehow morally justified because of that characters race, sex or orientation.

I also don't like it when stereo types are mis-portrayed -- that is, after they are labeled, their views or actions are counter to the stereo type or the core belief systems; especially when it's done with malice. But unfortunately, simplicity and stereo types are common to stories and films, due to lack of time and concentration on the plot. Comes with the territory.