In Order To Be Fair, I Need The Opinions Of EVERY Member Of This Forum...Old And New

[bloodrayne]

I do NOT want opinions based on how you feel or what you think about the specific people involved in this...I do NOT want anyone to agree with ME, for any reason, if you truly do NOT agree with what I have said...

I want NOTHING but blatant honesty...It IS important, because this issue has been raised MANY times before...Not only concerning the members mentioned here, or in just this one incident

I would like to have this worked out once and for all so that we can move on

You will ALL be playing 'moderator consultants' in this thread...If it turns out that I have made a bad decision, or do not seem to have a firm enough grasp on how to 'perform my duties'...I will step down as moderator...Yes, it IS that important...Here is what we're working with:


The Request

Phalanx wrote on 08-09-2006 06:35 AM:
"From now on, anyone who maliciously insults someone
(including spammers, new members..) or tries to start
a fight for ANY reason, it's goodbye. No ifs, No buts."

Posted by deposable in the "cheeba cheeba" thread:

"Cheeba is a loser. Needs to grow-up. I haven't been here for what ? almost six months ?
And you are still talking shit to people and making more enemies. Wow, what a life you must have. haha"

Without even TALKING to him, he said that.

So, the rules state "no ifs, no buts"...they also state these rules are applicable to ANYONE .
I've not entered into any kind of discussion with him...I'd like to see this rule upheld.

My Response

bloodrayne wrote on 08-09-2006 10:15 AM:
I know that in the 'It Stops Now' thread, it has been laid down that we ban anyone who engages in this type of behavior "No matter who they are, or how long they've been here"...BUT....I expect the people who HAVE been here for a very long time (such as you), to know how we do things here....We ALL rip each other...What I have seen, I consider to be just goofing off between veteran members, who should know by now, not to take it seriously...I do not feel that anyone was intentionally trying to be "malicious".......He only called you a 'loser'...YOU have gotten away with FAR worse, without being banned...

So, some people here don't like you, it happens...

What we were trying to stop was the page after page personal attacks that became heated and spilled all over the forum, shitting the entire place up with bullshit...That HAS stopped, and it won't be tolerated...ONE post (even unprovoked), containing NO profanities, and only a mild derogatory statement, is not considered an all-out 'malicious attack'

Try to keep things in perspective...I see that as a very mild statement of one's opinion...If you feel compelled to respond with something like "No, YOU'RE the loser" go ahead...But, I'm sure that even though that comment made you angry, you can see how silly that is

If you feel that I have treated you unfairly in this matter, get Zwoti's opinion...And/Or we can take it to the forum and ask the opinions of the other members concerning what should and should not be considered a 'bannable offense'

We are one of the MOST tolerant forums on the internet (it's true, check around)...If we banned everyone simply for making a comment expressing their displeasure with someone, there would be no one left here

Think of it this way...If you were out shopping, and someone in your neighborhood walked up to you and said, "You're a loser, get a life"...Would you try to have them arrested?...Would you ask to have them removed and barred from the store?...That would be a little extreme, wouldn't it?

PLEASE try to understand my position...I am sorry that some of the members don't like you...You HAVE made some enemies here, but does it really matter?...MOST of the people here like you...Think of some of the things that YOU have said to some people here...Then weigh this one

Let me know if you want me to take this to the forum, and get a vote on it...I think that would be fair if you choose to go that route...

What do you think?

His Last Word

Phalanx wrote on 08-09-2006 10:50 AM:
I suggest then maybe you add a "it's ok if it's your opinion, or you're just making a statement about a person on the basis of a grudge you've been holding for far, far too long", to the "rules".
It's ridiculous.
Generally, if I've said something to someone, it's been prompted by them saying something to me first.
These statements aren't being made lightly, or as a joke. They're being made to offend, and/or to bait me into response - and it WILL continue...
If you're saying that's ok to go on for however long they see fit, simply because they're an established (although not even a good contributor in general) member, that the rules can just bounce off them...that's fucked.
I got banned for what I did, didn't I?
You can't ALWAYS be the "good guy" in everyones eyes.

I'm not going to be bothered following up on this with any additional moderation, I'm sure that the need to protect your popularity among the masses outweighs it for you all anyway, right?
Forget it.

And finally My Last Word

bloodrayne wrote on 08-09-2006 11:30 AM:

Popularity means nothing...ESPECIALLY on an internet forum, that's just lame..

Anyway...Since you obviously feel that MY opinion is biased, and you disagree with it...I suggest that we try 'majority rules'

We'll take it to the forum, and see how this is viewed by the others

Seems fair to me...

So...That's where we are now

I need your opinions on what you think about this situation...ESPECIALLY the interpretation of 'malicious attacks' and how to differentiate between just getting on someone's nerves because you may not like them, and an all out assault

I would also like to know what YOU (all of you) feel IS and is NOT a 'bannable offense'...Or should/should not be

Understand?

We (all of us) have a tendency to argue from time to time, usually because we may disagree with someone, or we simply cannot tolerate them for whatever reason...Differences of opinions and personality clashes are common for ANY societal situation...I don't feel that it would be prudent to ban someone for common human behavior

I truly believed that people understood where to draw the line, and knew when they were crossing that line

Is anyone here confused about how much is TOO much?

Now...It's your turn...I need you to be 'moderator consultants'

If ANYONE flames ANYONE in THIS thread...You will be banned...I swear to you in the name of all that is horror, I WILL do it

That is NOT what this thread is for...I need intelligent, well thought out, level-headed, unemotional responses ONLY...If any part of this pisses you off, express your anger/frustration in a PM to the party it should be directed to (preferrably ME...I can handle it), but absolutely NOT here...I believe that we are ALL mature enough to do this the right way...

Please don't make me ban you, just to prove that I will...I honestly HATE banning ANYONE...I think it's ridiculous that adults should have to be controlled by someone else...We SHOULD be able to control OURSELVES...It's disgusting

I will be taking everything that you say here into consideration

*awaiting your responses*

[Vodstok]

To be honest, the "It Stops Now" thread will lose any and all meaning and integrity if nothing is done about that, now that this whole thing has come to light.

Dep was instigating, and it's not like the mods can slap someone on the wrist here. Banning just means you have to come up with a new name and profile. Its no doubt annoying, but it;s hardly like being kicked out of the playground, never to return.

[bloodrayne]

Originally posted by Vodstok
To be honest, the "It Stops Now" thread will lose any and all meaning and integrity if nothing is done about that, now that this whole thing has come to light.

Dep was instigating, and it's not like the mods can slap someone on the wrist here. Banning just means you have to come up with a new name and profile. Its no doubt annoying, but it;s hardly like being kicked out of the playground, never to return.

Thank you, Vod...I appreciate that

So...You feel that if someone calls someone a loser, they should be banned?...MY interpretation of a 'malicious attack' was a little more than that...Perhaps I have been TOO tolerant...everyone has a different perception of things

That is EXACTLY why I need the opinions of EVERYONE here...It helps a lot :)

[Vodstok]

Calling someone a loser is one thing. im not saying that its a blanket rule, you call someone a loser, you get banned, but in this case...

There is a dog next door. its a friendly dog most of the time, but it doesnt tak emuch to get him going. so you tease it with a stick. You completely deserve it when your mother backhands you for trying to get it riled up.

same here. its based on history, he KNOWS who he is messing with and was doing it to start shit.

Now, if there was no history there and he was just some guy who went back and read the thread and said "you did that? man, what a loser." that would be a completely different thing.

[hammerfan]

Originally posted by bloodrayne
So...You feel that if someone calls someone a loser, they should be banned?...MY interpretation of a 'malicious attack' was a little more than that...Perhaps I have been TOO tolerant...everyone has a different perception of things

That is EXACTLY why I need the opinions of EVERYONE here...It helps a lot :)

I think you also have to take into consideration the person's intent. It was obvious that desposable was trying to bait cheeba because he knew he could get a rise out of him. It may not have "sounded" malicious, but, again, it was the intent of the post to get under cheeba's skin.

Does this make sense? Or is my menopausal brain failing me again?

[Phalanx]

All I'm saying is, you should back up the rules you put forth, if you intend for them to be taken seriously at all. I was banned, wasn't I? No argument from me about it.
I think any kind of behaviour that is clearly intended to instigate trouble (whether or not you claim afterwards that it's a joke, or you "weren't being serious") or evoke an agrumentative reaction ought to be acted upon.
If not, then more often than not, there will be retaliation, and a continued argument, and will more than likely take place on the forum threads as opposed to within private messages...which I believe is why you set out the "rules" in the first place.
I had intended to come back here and post relevantly, as I have been...yet, when a person is faced with insults and demeaning comments, and no kind of "authority" is willing to step on this kind of bullshit, it will either continue via means of certain people trying to "bait" others, or, one is left with no choice but to retaliate...and so on, and so on, and so on...

[Vodstok]

Originally posted by hammerfan
I think you also have to take into consideration the person's intent. It was obvious that desposable was trying to bait cheeba because he knew he could get a rise out of him. It may not have "sounded" malicious, but, again, it was the intent of the post to get under cheeba's skin.

Does this make sense? Or is my menopausal brain failing me again?

this was a much better way of saying what i was trying to say :)

[bloodrayne]

BTW...I just wanted to add that 'Personal Moderating' is the ONE thing that pisses me off concerning moderators...I have actually 'STRONGLY cautioned' a couple of moderators for that type of bullshit myself...I have called people on it a couple of times in the moderator's forum (that you guys can't see, but I have no reason to lie to you), and when we 'moderators' discuss shit, I have vehemently expressed my disgust for it...

If anyone feels that I have been guilty of 'personally moderating' myself...I apologize that you may have perceived something I have done or said in that manner, BUT you are wrong...It's that simple

I treat everyone (except Bane) the same way here...I feel that I have been MORE than fair


You guys can discuss THIS statement, too...If ya like

[crabapple]

Here's the thing, Bloodrayne...you're a moderator, right? And you're not a robot, you're a person. Your decision on what "crosses the line" is up to your interpretation. There's NO WAY to accurately DEFINE when something someone types is offensive or malicious. It's purely up to the interpretation of the person looking at it. It's a hard job!

Heck, I jokingly called someone a "LOSER" once, and it was a joke, and everyone understood that, and it was funny. Technically, I insulted that person, but it wasn't "meant" maliciously, and in my opinion, it wasn't a flame; it was a joke. Was my joke objectionable? Not my job to decide that.

So who decides when something is "meant" with sufficient malicious intent to be objectionable?

You do, because you're the moderator.

[The Flayed One]

Well, I think we're going into an extremely grey area here. What Dep said was borderline antagonizing. Where do we draw the line, though?

BTW, YOU KNOW I LOVE YOU BLOODRAYNE AND THE FOLLOWING IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!

For instance, if I said:

"Bloodrayne, you really annoy me. As far as I can see, you've been irking people for a long time. Why don't you ltry to make your posts relavent or go somewhere else?"

That's an opinion, although being a strong and possibly hurtful one. Being blunt upsets people sometimes.

Then again, if I posted:

"Bloodrayne, you're a fucking annoying idiot. All you do around here is piss people off with your idiotic shit. Either learn to not be such a fucktard, or fuck off?"

Well, I said basically the same thing, but that time it was obviously to try to bait you into a flame war. It's still the same opinion, but it's intentionally malicious & hurtful.

Where do we draw the line? I don't know. I'm sure cheebs is upset because he got banned for breaking the rules, and now he sees what is in his opinion breaking the rules going unpunished.

I feel what Dep said is borderlining between the two examples I offered above. Whatever we decide, we need to think long and hard about it. If this is going to be the example, it's going to need to stick or the whole thing is pointless. I don't want to have to sit through a bunch of people spewing bile at each other, but I also want to be able to tell someone they're being annoying without fear of being banned.