[nine9]

Originally posted by Stingy Jack
This is actually a valid question that I have never heard adequately answered. In my experiences with having religious debates, I have oftentimes come across the argument that the universe, and life itself, is so complex and precise that it could not have just formed on it's own. It had to have an intelligent maker. For example, if you were walking along the beach and suddenly came across a watch, you would know instantly that such a device had to be made by someone ... not just formed together on its' own.

To this argument I point out the error that, according to people who use this argument, god is actually more complex and precise than we, or the universe He created. He is so complex, in fact, that we human beings can barely comprehend him. And yet, such a being is free from needing a creator. Which is a self-defeating point for the argument of design. How can one argue that complex, ordered things like the universe must have a creator, and then say, two seconds later, that complex things like god do not? You've just shown that not all things that are complex and precise need a creator. So why must you arbitrarily assign this requirement to the universe, and not to god? Could not the universe have "always been"?

What if there was no beginning and no end....it just always has been there only in different forms.....No time....only illusion......No birth and no death.....illusion only...........everything just is......and is not at the same time. How can a creator exist when there never was a beginning. We then are all part of it all...........existing.........always dancing in different forms........