LOL, nice....

Damn i can imagine.....is there really any area that bush is causing IMPROVEMENT?? I just haven't heard of any and was wondering.....

If you mean that any Non-bush supporter is, then i suppose so:rolleyes: .....biggest cop-out EVER....

For us? No. For Iraqui citizens? Maybe ...

And what do we, the American public get in return? A warm fuzzy feeling, a big bucket off "Get the fuck out" by the Iraqis and some citizens who are a bit shorter thanks to some Al-Quaeda members.

Vodstok,

you said "How do you justify using rough generalizations, and then "correct" me for mine? "


I'm not trying to correct you at all. In fact didn't you say "If anyone thinks i have my head up my ass, i am interested to hear your reasons." ????? I just gave you my reasons. that's all. I stand firm on my OPINION that one can not state that many countries hate America based on some time spent in Europe. It's a big world out there, and I doubt anyone has spoken to everyone.


you said.. ""Bullshit democrat way of thinking". That's an informed opinion. I imagine real-world discussions with you resort to you shouting your ideas loudly so that the other person cant get a word in edgewise and gets irritated an leaves, therefore you dont have to hear their stance and can go on in your self-righteous indignation. Or, i could be wrong. Thtat is just the impression you are giving."


I have no self righteous indignation.... sorry if you came to that conclusion... I certainly don't think that way of you. Seems the impression you get from me is wrong. Totally not who I am!


you said.... "Also, in case you havent noticed, the attitude of the government very rarely reflects the feelings of the populace at large. I DO agree that a large part of why some of the world's most successful nations are the way they are is because of our influence (Germany and Japan are 2 examples). that doesnt mean they all love us."


I have noticed and I agree with you there.... Unfortunately that is further proof that people vote based on emotions and fear ,not using their heads. I wish there were a way to change that. Maybe our politicians (both sides included) could quit mudslinging and stick to the issues.


You said.... "We ARE also the only remaining Superpower on earth, and this is the root of a lot of our unpopularity. Rather than being seen as benevolent leaders, we are seen as arrogant, pushy bullies. And fundamentalist muslims are just the latest crop of people that cant stand us. And many MANY people and countries want to start war. Why else would they have such large standing armies when they dont need one? The only thing holding them back is the fact that any act of violence these days brings the UN and America down on them like a swarm of wasps.
This IS a good thing i believe. Being good out of fear of punishment isn't GOOD, but its a start."


Although I think all countries need an army to defend themselves. In my opinion your right on there.


You said.... "Also, the "You need us" approach isnt going to make us any more freinds. Try telling a Canadian that they Need us to cover their ass. Or an English person. So what if onpaper it is true? so what if America didnt back many countries they would be easy fodder for their neighbors? Do you want the cops swinging by every so oftenreminding you that without them, someone could come into your house and steal all your things and you could do nothing? Of course not."



Good point. I wonder what would happen if we cut off all aid out there.. Who'd be knocking on America's door first??? The whole cops thing is another topic entirely.


you said...."I compare war to abortion because abortion is considered murder, but innocents killed in war are "acceptable losses". Again, if they aborted a baby, they would be evil bastards, but if they blew up a building and killed 20, they made a slip up. Believ me, you dont spend your life growing up in the military and not know a thing or two about war."


Now that you clarified I see your point although I disagree on the comparison. Abortion is not necessary , unfortunately War is.



you said..."I know what war has done for us. i also know the difference between World War 2 and Vietnam. I knwo the difference between fighting for whats right, and fighting to prevent a nation from converting to a system of government that we dont want them to have,but they could care less about."


You certainly have a right to your opinion. And I can and do respectfully disagree with it. I'll save it for the new debate forum as I am sure reasons for past wars will come up.


you said... "Iraq was a 50/50 war. Saddam needed to be taken down, he was a bad person doing bad things. BUT, we should not be lied to. i would have backed Bush 100% if he had said "I dont ike him, he tried to have my dad killed, and you all KNOW you want him taken down." Fuck weapons of mass destruction. Kick his ass because it needs to be kicked."


I do back Bush 100% And I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, whoever was in office would have had the same information as Bush and given us the same reasons for going to war in Iraq. Until I see Bush say "I lied and it was all about revenge" I will stick to backing Bush's decisions. I didn't blindly vote.... It was based on heavy thought and pondering of issues at hand. I do care about the future of this country that so many men in my life have served, fought, and died for. Although I don't agree on everything the current administration does, has done, and will do, I feel in the long run it's what our country needs.



You said... "I thank the people who FOUGHT for this country for my life, not the wars they fought. "A true warrior prepares for battle, but prays for peace." You might want to put a little more thought into your words before you use them, as you have advise3d others to do. War doesnt do shit but kill people. its the people who were in them that actually accomplished something."


War sucks plain and simple but it is our reality. And we totally disagree there... I think without war the world would be a different place for sure and I'm doubtfull that's a good thing.. Thanks for the advice, about thinking about words I use. I do believe you should take that advice yourself....


you said "And as far as the last election went, Bush did not have the superior number. No one knows for sure, and it is a moot point anyway because that was 4 years ago and he has already been in office to do his damage."


Bush did have the superior number and he didn't have to pay bums with cigarettes and a warm meal to get it.

The way I see it , Bush is doing a fine job with the mess he walked into left by the Clintons and hopefully he will continue to do so for the next 4 years.

That was wonderfully lucid and calm gothic :)

Can we say that we agree to disagree? There is always SOME common ground :D

the hostility is certainly palpable. as an american living in france, i have gotten into some heated discussions with arabic friends who think that what the american soldiers are doing in irak is no different than what those al quaeda members did to those poor men in the videos. from what i've seen here, not too many people ( and by this i mean the arabic population here in france which is considerable ) are happy nor thankful for the intervention. they see it more as an invasion.

And that was pretty much what i was saying. Americans have a very high opinion of what we do around the world, and i think we deserve it most of the time.

But there is a big difference in perception from country to country, and "helping out" is often interpreted as "butting in". In a lot of cases, they want to be left to fight their own wars. BlackHawk Down shows an awful lot of how we help people and they dont even appreciate it. they would rather blow each other up their own way, not have americans flitting about doing it for them.

that's exactly what i've heard here. and i know bush has his supporters, but ever since he's been in office, the general opinion about americans has gotten worse and worse, and i've been living in paris for 10 years now, so i know what i'm talking about. as you pointed out, americans didn't appreciate being lied to, guess what, neither did the rest of the world ( or at least, most of europe ). i think that bush's persona just made the whole situation worse.

edit : i've really got to see that movie !

As for what other countries think of us, WHO GIVES A SHIT???? How many times has France ever came to the aid of anyone besides us during the Rev. War....NOONE. IF we hadnt gone to Normandy they would all be speaking German right now.

We ended Hitler and his Nazi regime, stopped Communism and ended the cold war, removed a psycho murderer in the Balkans and another maniac who murdered several hundred thousand people in Iraq.

No what we should do is be isolationist and sit around and watch the rest of the world kill each other and we will do nothing:rolleyes: .

Fact of the matter is most people care more about what Britney is wearing on the red carpet and what is going on with Ben and Jen. All people really want is to watch there big screens, play vid games and screw around on their spouses on the internet.

Oooh cant wait to see what is going on with the OJ trial blah blah blah.

WAKE UP PEOPLE BOTH OF THESE POLITCAL PARTIES DONT CARE ABOUT US 'THE AVERAGE JOE' THEY CARE ABOUT STAYING IN OFFICE AND THATS IT.

You got to have rocks in your head to want to be in politics, unless you are power hungry.

Sorry dont think that Kerry really gives a shit, if he did may be he would give his millions to charity and become a monk.

The only thing W ever did me wrong by is that his administration doesnt recognize my religion as legit, and I say to that so what. Witches and Pagans and the like have been persecuted since the beginning of time, I have become used to it.

I like to think of myself as an Independent thinker but all I will say whoever I vote for it will not be Kerry/Edwards.

Sorry about the Rant I really dislike politcians in general, especially the 2 party system.