I just showed you proof that they cant proove anything what more do you want?If there is fact backing you then it wouldnt be an opinion now would it?I dont even think you know what to believe your mixing fact and opinion and those 2 dont go together.I showed you that nothing can be proved now you show me where any group of scientists will tell me exactly when a fetus should be considered a life ,then ill state what you are saying as a fact, but the problem is you will never find anything like that because it doesnt exsist.You will never hear a scientists tell you the exact day a life starts because they dont even know.

Wonderful, why dont you go break eric rudolph out of jail. Apparently, life isnt important once it is born, just when it is gestating. I swear, i have never seen as much disregad for people who have already been BORN than i have in pro-lifers.... Who the fuck are you to choose who lives and who dies once they have been born? are you no longer innocent?

You've shown me 'proof' that nothing can be prooven. I want the facts that you're basing your opinion on that abortion should be illegal. I said before, my opinion is based on the following:
Fact: Two of the things that classify a life form as a mammal are a spinal chord and the ability to breath with lungs.
Fact: Humans are mammals
Fact: The backbone is in place in 6 weeks, the lungs in 8 weeks. That's 2 months.
All of that is undisputed fact. There is nothing saying that they have a soul, and the soul is a religious concept. Thus, you cannot bring souls into it. So don't. I don't care whether you're religious our not, do not bring up souls.
No. Ovums and sperm aren't people. They could potentially BECOME people. They aren't people.

I say again, if you have no fact, do not bother to reply.

i think if its been less then 2 months then abortion is okay...because it isnt living fully yet....so that my opinon

3 weeks from conception when the embryo is about 2 mm long and has started to develop visible external body parts

4 weeks when its heart starts to beat.

4 weeks and you have a heartbeat hmm if thats not a life i dunno what is. 6 weeks from conception, when brain waves can be first sensed

This is all within a 6 week period and i dunno about you but brain waves and a heartbeat is life enough for me

Are you even listening? Are you reading the posts? I'm trying not to just completely rip into you, but you're making that really difficult. I'm not arguing whether or not it's alive. I'm not. It's alive or it's not, whatever. I'm arguing whether or not it's human.

Also, you didn't post a link to where you found all your proof from.

ok so you feel like something has to be defined as a human to decide whether or not it is right to abort it or not.I will only answer like this.
1.Are the limbs that show after 3 weeks human?? yes
2.Is the heart that beats after 4 weeks human?? yes
3.is the brain that starts to form after 6 weeks human??yes

And this is all in the first trimenster when its still legal to abort.not only that theres DNA to prove its human shortley after conception.I see what your getting at and you have your beliefs and i respect that but this really is getting us knowwhere.

All I can say is, if you're battling with Sam and I, you're wrong.

I suggest no one post again until someone has facts, or can at least attempt to argue their point with civility and without religion. He's mentioned numerous times that all we want to see factual evidence.

He's brought some up to the table, why can't anyone else? Or is it because no one else can find anything to support their side of the argument? People have been relying too heavily on name-calling, religion, and ignorance to express their point. I'm beginning to feel embarrassed for them.

hey Im with you and sam....soo i can post right?

The fetus gets it's own DNA one second after conception. I know, I posted a link to a site that lists all the stages of birth. Thing is, I have no sympathy for DNA. A lot of things have limbs and a heart and a brain.

Points for trying to bring facts, but there's no support.

i read all of this....are you all for abortion sam??

By the way, since I keep saying no religion, I feel I should make it clear that personally, I believe in souls. No, I don't know whether or not the soul is in the fetus the whole time or not. But not everybody does, so I'm not bringing in my personal religious beliefs into the argument.

Hey, why not then.

I'm agnostic, not religious at all. But I believe there are souls also, and that it does go somewhere after you die. Where I'm not sure, and when a fetus is given one I'm not sure.

But neither of those are part of this debate :P

Only reason I said it is because I got the feeling that it was gonna start to look like I had some bias against religion. You're right, it isn't part of the debate.


Now...*awaits facts*

No offense gore but i think if sam told you to whipe his ass you would.You need a mind of your own and quit being a puppet.And sam you brought up some good points.But thats the great thing about this world u can disagree about things and not get stupid about it.

wait a sec fucker....dont tell me that im a puppet because i work alone mother fucker....i listen to sam cause he acually knows what the fuck he is saying....so untill i see facts on ur part then maybe i'd listen to you

Like I've said over and over again. I'm not necissarily for abortion. My point is that the arguments that support it are fundamentally religious and are thus unimportant as it pertains to outlawing abortion.

You're still not helping. Calm down.

i said that i am for it if the baby isnt fully developed so 2 months....if after 2 months and it starts to fully develop then no don't do it....

sorry dude he just pisses me off just cause i agree with you that i am up your ass and shit....its just my opinion too....cause I agree with you

Ok.. so disagree. With proof. Otherwise you're just like a mother that tells her infant "because I said so."

You need to have backing in your beliefs, otherwise why would you believe in it?

I didnt see proof on either side.I do have backing in my beliefs and if someone wants to believe it takes a spine to be considered human life so be it.To me a hearbeat is enough.Scientists crontradict eachother all the time and one will tell you human life starts the way sam decribed and another will tell you it starts right after conception.I agree with some of what he sad just not all of it.Seems the only thing we dissagree on is when its considered a human life.

http://www.horror.com/forum/showthre...&threadid=4179
There's evidence brought up in there.

It's enough to have a heartbeat? Man, if you're not a vegetarian then you're a cannibal.
If you don't have the physical traits that classify you as a human, you're not human.

By the way, you've yet to list your sources for anything remotely scientific you've brought up.

:rolleyes: You must be blind. Sam already posted some.. and he already beat me to rementioning it.

Bravo, Sam. Very well stated, I think. I agree that you can have your beliefs, however you can't impose those beliefs on other people. That's the problem with the Religious Right. They try and make everyone have those outdated out moded oppressive beliefs.

C'mon people, don't be like the Religious Right.

Just to clarify and reiterate, I could never have an abortion, but there is no way in hell that I would tell another woman that she couldn't. Fundementally and for myself, I'm Pro-CHOICE. There should always be a choice.

This thread is to long so i did not read the whole thing but still want to post how i feel. When i was 15 i became pregnent. My boyfriends parents asked if i had considered abortion. I hit the roof Because my choses came before i got pregnent. When you become pregnent a life starts "FACT". If you stop it you have killed it "FACT". I don't belive we have the right to kill our children. As you can see I have very strong feelings about this. If you don't want a baby, Don't get pregnent!!! I also want you to know that my best friend had an abortion when she was young and while it was hard to hear, I stood by her side. She is still haunted today over that Experence.

I'm not going to type a lengthy explanation, I just think it's wrong.

Im not argueing your point sam.What i want to know is at what point is it ok to have an abortion and what point is not??Just because some people need to hear that it reached what they conider the human stage so is that when it shouldnt be allowed to abort?The sites you posted is nothing new and stuff to be honest u learn in 7th grade.

Why even bring science in this when its a moral issue??science dont teach you morals and values.You place to much on physical traits when without a heartbeat you die right??DNA makes up everythin we become and DNA is unique to each indvidual so therefore DNA is a human life at its earliest stages.DNA seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom so therefore with testing we know without a doubt its a human life.It doesnt matter that you wanna knocK DNA.The point is once you have DNA you cannott prove against it as being a human life.

.....
he's not serious...

please tell me he's not being serious

Uh...DNA is contained within every living thing, and that includes plants and animals. Dude, you might want to re-examine your facts, because you appear to be WRONG.

By the way, Nate, this is not a moral issue, and even if it were what makes you or any other pro-lifer qualified to decide the morals for an ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD? That's why it's not a more issue.

I don't mean to yell at you man, but don't come up in here spouting bullshit. Check your facts. See, if this were an actual debate, you AND Sam would have to qualify your facts with hard data. Sam was pretty good about doing that at the beginning. Let's see some data.

Here, I will distill this whole ting to its base parts.....


Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control for thoses who dont feel like using a pill or copndom, BUT, should be available.

PArtial Birth abortion is SICK, and really should only be used in cases where the mother will die without it.

Regular abortion for women who will die from giving birth, were raped, or are victims of fate in some other way should have nice, vclean, legal facilities available to them without question.


Women who have had an abortion are ALWAYS affected by it emotionally. It is not a "get out of motherhood free" card, it comes with a heavy emotional price that most pro-lifers convenietnly ignore.


Finally, If you are pro-life, then you are volunteering to care for the children that would have otherwise been aborted. If it is ever made illeagal, i will be advertisisng your homes as places for mother to drop off thei runwanted children. By forcing them to have them, you have volunteered to be their caretakers. Have a ball.

never thought of that, but good one. people always say 'you got pregnant, you're stuck with it.' now as much of an ass that i can be, id go along with that, except how about the child? sure, stupid ass teenagers should take responsibility for their actions, but as much as i'd like for them to have to give up and dreams and partying that they wanted to do, i really couldnt do that to a child.

again, i'm not for partial birth abortion EXCEPT in very special cases (eg my aunt and the brain tumor). however i'm all for gettin a shot/pill and gettin rid of it, rather than raising a kid in a bad situation. you know how most of them turn out.....

I aint volunteerng for shit.People need to take responsbilitys on themselves if they think there responsible enough to get there groove on then they sure as hell need to take responsibility for that child.There are people willing to adopt that cant have children, and sometmes there on awaiting list for years before they ever get to adopt so theres more then eough people willing to adopt.Your making an excuse for people to not take responsibility for there action.so what if the same person has 3 abortions because they keep getting pregnant?they aint learning shit that way and your telling that person its ok??bullshit

So you're either not having sex, or you're hoping that the condom doesn't break, right? People do take responsibilities for their actions- that's why birth control was invented. Like I said earlier, people like to have sex, and mistakes still happen. Teens have sex all the time, and they're practicing it safely. When a mishap does happen, and they're not at all suitable to raise a child, what are they supposed to do? The only other option is adoption, but which is more difficult? Have an abortion, or put your child up for adoption? I don't want that answered, because it's not part of this debate. I just want you to think about it.

I make no excuse for anyone. your insistance of your point, and I of mine are the reason your logic fails. People dont change, or do so rarely. Irresponsible people wont just BECOME responsible. You are making excuses. People with your attitude live in a fantasy world where people have something bad happen to them, and they shape up overnight. Grow up.

And yes, you are volunteering. Quit trying to dictatae what people can and can not do with their bodies.


And do you knwo anyone who hase ever had more than one abortion? do you have any good, relieble, documented proof? What-if arguments are useless without some data to back them up.