LOL, nice....

Damn i can imagine.....is there really any area that bush is causing IMPROVEMENT?? I just haven't heard of any and was wondering.....

If you mean that any Non-bush supporter is, then i suppose so:rolleyes: .....biggest cop-out EVER....

For us? No. For Iraqui citizens? Maybe ...

And what do we, the American public get in return? A warm fuzzy feeling, a big bucket off "Get the fuck out" by the Iraqis and some citizens who are a bit shorter thanks to some Al-Quaeda members.

Vodstok,

you said "How do you justify using rough generalizations, and then "correct" me for mine? "


I'm not trying to correct you at all. In fact didn't you say "If anyone thinks i have my head up my ass, i am interested to hear your reasons." ????? I just gave you my reasons. that's all. I stand firm on my OPINION that one can not state that many countries hate America based on some time spent in Europe. It's a big world out there, and I doubt anyone has spoken to everyone.


you said.. ""Bullshit democrat way of thinking". That's an informed opinion. I imagine real-world discussions with you resort to you shouting your ideas loudly so that the other person cant get a word in edgewise and gets irritated an leaves, therefore you dont have to hear their stance and can go on in your self-righteous indignation. Or, i could be wrong. Thtat is just the impression you are giving."


I have no self righteous indignation.... sorry if you came to that conclusion... I certainly don't think that way of you. Seems the impression you get from me is wrong. Totally not who I am!


you said.... "Also, in case you havent noticed, the attitude of the government very rarely reflects the feelings of the populace at large. I DO agree that a large part of why some of the world's most successful nations are the way they are is because of our influence (Germany and Japan are 2 examples). that doesnt mean they all love us."


I have noticed and I agree with you there.... Unfortunately that is further proof that people vote based on emotions and fear ,not using their heads. I wish there were a way to change that. Maybe our politicians (both sides included) could quit mudslinging and stick to the issues.


You said.... "We ARE also the only remaining Superpower on earth, and this is the root of a lot of our unpopularity. Rather than being seen as benevolent leaders, we are seen as arrogant, pushy bullies. And fundamentalist muslims are just the latest crop of people that cant stand us. And many MANY people and countries want to start war. Why else would they have such large standing armies when they dont need one? The only thing holding them back is the fact that any act of violence these days brings the UN and America down on them like a swarm of wasps.
This IS a good thing i believe. Being good out of fear of punishment isn't GOOD, but its a start."


Although I think all countries need an army to defend themselves. In my opinion your right on there.


You said.... "Also, the "You need us" approach isnt going to make us any more freinds. Try telling a Canadian that they Need us to cover their ass. Or an English person. So what if onpaper it is true? so what if America didnt back many countries they would be easy fodder for their neighbors? Do you want the cops swinging by every so oftenreminding you that without them, someone could come into your house and steal all your things and you could do nothing? Of course not."



Good point. I wonder what would happen if we cut off all aid out there.. Who'd be knocking on America's door first??? The whole cops thing is another topic entirely.


you said...."I compare war to abortion because abortion is considered murder, but innocents killed in war are "acceptable losses". Again, if they aborted a baby, they would be evil bastards, but if they blew up a building and killed 20, they made a slip up. Believ me, you dont spend your life growing up in the military and not know a thing or two about war."


Now that you clarified I see your point although I disagree on the comparison. Abortion is not necessary , unfortunately War is.



you said..."I know what war has done for us. i also know the difference between World War 2 and Vietnam. I knwo the difference between fighting for whats right, and fighting to prevent a nation from converting to a system of government that we dont want them to have,but they could care less about."


You certainly have a right to your opinion. And I can and do respectfully disagree with it. I'll save it for the new debate forum as I am sure reasons for past wars will come up.


you said... "Iraq was a 50/50 war. Saddam needed to be taken down, he was a bad person doing bad things. BUT, we should not be lied to. i would have backed Bush 100% if he had said "I dont ike him, he tried to have my dad killed, and you all KNOW you want him taken down." Fuck weapons of mass destruction. Kick his ass because it needs to be kicked."


I do back Bush 100% And I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, whoever was in office would have had the same information as Bush and given us the same reasons for going to war in Iraq. Until I see Bush say "I lied and it was all about revenge" I will stick to backing Bush's decisions. I didn't blindly vote.... It was based on heavy thought and pondering of issues at hand. I do care about the future of this country that so many men in my life have served, fought, and died for. Although I don't agree on everything the current administration does, has done, and will do, I feel in the long run it's what our country needs.



You said... "I thank the people who FOUGHT for this country for my life, not the wars they fought. "A true warrior prepares for battle, but prays for peace." You might want to put a little more thought into your words before you use them, as you have advise3d others to do. War doesnt do shit but kill people. its the people who were in them that actually accomplished something."


War sucks plain and simple but it is our reality. And we totally disagree there... I think without war the world would be a different place for sure and I'm doubtfull that's a good thing.. Thanks for the advice, about thinking about words I use. I do believe you should take that advice yourself....


you said "And as far as the last election went, Bush did not have the superior number. No one knows for sure, and it is a moot point anyway because that was 4 years ago and he has already been in office to do his damage."


Bush did have the superior number and he didn't have to pay bums with cigarettes and a warm meal to get it.

The way I see it , Bush is doing a fine job with the mess he walked into left by the Clintons and hopefully he will continue to do so for the next 4 years.

That was wonderfully lucid and calm gothic :)

Can we say that we agree to disagree? There is always SOME common ground :D

the hostility is certainly palpable. as an american living in france, i have gotten into some heated discussions with arabic friends who think that what the american soldiers are doing in irak is no different than what those al quaeda members did to those poor men in the videos. from what i've seen here, not too many people ( and by this i mean the arabic population here in france which is considerable ) are happy nor thankful for the intervention. they see it more as an invasion.

And that was pretty much what i was saying. Americans have a very high opinion of what we do around the world, and i think we deserve it most of the time.

But there is a big difference in perception from country to country, and "helping out" is often interpreted as "butting in". In a lot of cases, they want to be left to fight their own wars. BlackHawk Down shows an awful lot of how we help people and they dont even appreciate it. they would rather blow each other up their own way, not have americans flitting about doing it for them.

that's exactly what i've heard here. and i know bush has his supporters, but ever since he's been in office, the general opinion about americans has gotten worse and worse, and i've been living in paris for 10 years now, so i know what i'm talking about. as you pointed out, americans didn't appreciate being lied to, guess what, neither did the rest of the world ( or at least, most of europe ). i think that bush's persona just made the whole situation worse.

edit : i've really got to see that movie !

As for what other countries think of us, WHO GIVES A SHIT???? How many times has France ever came to the aid of anyone besides us during the Rev. War....NOONE. IF we hadnt gone to Normandy they would all be speaking German right now.

We ended Hitler and his Nazi regime, stopped Communism and ended the cold war, removed a psycho murderer in the Balkans and another maniac who murdered several hundred thousand people in Iraq.

No what we should do is be isolationist and sit around and watch the rest of the world kill each other and we will do nothing:rolleyes: .

Fact of the matter is most people care more about what Britney is wearing on the red carpet and what is going on with Ben and Jen. All people really want is to watch there big screens, play vid games and screw around on their spouses on the internet.

Oooh cant wait to see what is going on with the OJ trial blah blah blah.

WAKE UP PEOPLE BOTH OF THESE POLITCAL PARTIES DONT CARE ABOUT US 'THE AVERAGE JOE' THEY CARE ABOUT STAYING IN OFFICE AND THATS IT.

You got to have rocks in your head to want to be in politics, unless you are power hungry.

Sorry dont think that Kerry really gives a shit, if he did may be he would give his millions to charity and become a monk.

The only thing W ever did me wrong by is that his administration doesnt recognize my religion as legit, and I say to that so what. Witches and Pagans and the like have been persecuted since the beginning of time, I have become used to it.

I like to think of myself as an Independent thinker but all I will say whoever I vote for it will not be Kerry/Edwards.

Sorry about the Rant I really dislike politcians in general, especially the 2 party system.

lol
very true. but many forget that the only reason the u.s went to war was because of pearl harbour and the fact that we were attacked, and that the nazi threat was spreading. before that there was never any intention of going to war. but i wasn't there so i wouldn't know ( my... i did listen to my history classes after all... ). and on that note, we should all check out propain's forum. lol

but i agree that all politicians are shit and that neither bush nor kerry really give a damn. it's all about voting for who you think is the lesser of two evils really.


edit : and i hate politics and politicians also creeper. that's why i hardly ever talk about the subject... way too aggravating. so rant away, if you feel like it !

Agreed..

I got it too, and im sure you not really like that in real life...

That was a much nicer post GC...

stop bush.... shave down below.

you had to drag it down to that level didn't you.

lmao !

it's the only way to stop the overgrowth

Shanks Is our churchill. You rule, buddy :)

here here ! :p


edit : it's mine arioch.... mine *laughs an diabolical laugh*

a quote from a conversation Mr W Churchill had, with a woman who complained to him about having to much drink on one occasion.....

"Sir, you are drunk!" "Well madam, I may be
be drunk, but you are ugly; the difference
being I will be sober in the morning."

Winston Churchill

You stole my saying:mad:

.... hahahaha... slowpoke :D

















































i'm sorry !! so sorry !! want it back ?? :p

Yes...i do:p

uumm... how about no ?! tough noogies ! gotta be faster, punk :p :D


ohh... i'm so evil :rolleyes: :p

good, i was really hoping you liked churchhill :)

Notice how the Bush-supporters never seem to want to comment on the fact that Bush fucked up the educational system in the US. I guess if you don't talk about it, it'll go away?

had a comment but i erased it.

but it is true though, as powerful as our nation is education wise.....

What was the comment?

cant say...... with good reason. MUHAHAHAA. it was in a joking way but... was still somewhat derogatory

I have noticed that.....hmmmmmmmm....

VOD VOD VOD VOD VOD,
Most of the people in the military these days are there to pay for college? Let me ask you? Is that from personal experience? You have alot of buddies that joined the military for that reason? I seriously doubt it. Everybody joins the military for different reasons. I joined the Army because I didn't want to go to college.I was sick and tired of school but I didn't want to sit around and do nothing with my life. MARINES are some of the most patriotic people in the world.I think most of them would take offense to that remark.For what reasons did you join the military?

You lived in Europe for 9 years.How old were you? Just curious. You can speak for the majority of Europe? Who doesn't have a dislike for America. When the rest of the world seems so dependent on us.It goes with the territory. I am not so arrogant as to not think that Britain and even China are superpowers.

Since I'm the only one that compared the Democrats to Socialist you must be referring to me. Democracy in it most extreme form is Socialism. The Democrats want you to have to rely on them for everything. Their answer to everything is taxation.Take from the rich and give to the poor.Socialized health care. What's next? Being told where to work,where to live?

He used coke and got a drunk driving charge. You've never done any drugs?You've never drank to get drunk? At least he's got the balls to admit it. Unlike that turd Clinton.......I did not inhale......I did not have sexual relations with that woman.Sat right on nation TV and told me to my face.He must think Americans are stupid.I took that as a personal insult.
I never said I was a PRO-LIFER.But I don't think abortion should be used a means of birth control. War is sometimes necessary. I don't think anybody will deny that Saddam is an evil man.

Your right, Congress is our tool. The president is our figurehead and its important to the morale of this nation how he's viewed.

I'm not totally happy how Bush has handled the whole situation.I think we jumped into this war in Iraq too soon after Afghanistan.I'm an independent thinker too.I don't blame 9/11 on Iraq. This is the war on terrorism. All those middle eastern countries have ties to terrorism. And to think that none of Iraqis neighboring countries weren't grateful. I bet Iran and Kuwait were.The war on terrorism is world wide Vod. Not just the middle east.


Like I said, I'm not crazy about Bush but you know what? I'm more scared of Kerry.

Its been along day................. I"ll tell you why Iater.





.

Wait, wait, wait. You call Democrats "Socialists" because, as you say, "democracy in its most extreme form is Socialism". Okay .... well, since A Republic in its most extreme form is facism, do you mind if I call you a facist?

And I would say that Democracy in its most extreme form isn't Socialism ... maybe Communism?

Communism/Socialism call it anything you want. For that matter you can call me anything you want. Did you see Edwards speech last night? I thought I was going to puke. The democrats are going to save the world. First he says he's going to give working mothers and the rich tax cuts then he says the democrats are going to take care of the poor and the middle class. Like i said they want Americans to be dependent on the democratic govt. Where is all this money going to come from............. oh yeah.........
we'll just raise taxes. You people call yourselves free thinkers.Do you really believe everything you hear ?

You take the good with the bad with the republicans, how can you look down on others for doing the same?

I am sick of the "How can you know what EVERYONE else is thinking"... Obviously i dont. If i did, i would be defeating your arguments before you made them.

I was 16 when i left europe. a lot of things may change in 12 years, but not everything. Again, I asked Gothic Chick this: Have eiether of you spent any time in another country? I wasnt there on vacation, I was LIVING there, off the economy. Hellfire can tell you what that is like, she is doing it right now.

I never joined the military. that was an off-handed remark. Sorry i didnt specify that, but i was making a point: in the last 10 years, we havent had AS MANY people joining simply to be patriotic. My fiances sister joined the Navy because she wanted to do something good with her life. It must be genetic, because my fiance wants to be a cop.

They are both very admirable. However, michelle (my soon to be sister in law) was engaged to someone who joined because HIS PARENTS didnt want him to go to college. Simple as that. they wanted him in the military, he went. He doesnt want to be there, but he is doing his job, because now he feels he is stuck.

I apologise if i offended you because you joined for the right reason. My hat is off to you (really). I just wanted to point out that the motivation for serving the country has changed for many people. They didnt expect a war, and i know of people who thought "Oh shit, this wasnt supposed to happen". Well, thats what they get for taking that oath.

I havent heard of one that has backed down from the challenge, though, So initial motivation aside, it seems most are good people.

But then, I'm generalising again. Maybe i am wrong, i cant know what they are all thinking.

Just remember Stingy, you asked for this......

I didn't comment on it because I know that the state of education is NOT George Bush's fault. There was a problem with it long before Bush was elected president. He's just trying to come up with a solution.


Accountability for failing schools sounds great to me... A new way to teach seems to be a good start for those teachers who are letting kids pass when they don't know how to spell.

And of course local control is a good thing too. supplemental educational services for kids in under achieving schools is another great idea.

I'm not big on the testing ( some very smart people choke on tests) but then again...With the results , teachers can craft lessons for kids who need help in certain areas. Seems this plan may help change some of the parents out there who pay no attention to their kids education .

And if I remember correctly, didn't federal school funding jump up 60% or something close to that?

I'm not a teacher so I really can't comment much on that aspect. Although if I were I wouldn't dare assume all teachers in all schools felt the same way I did.

The teachers I have talked to in my kids schools about it are very happy with Bush's no child left behind act. With the exception of a 3rd grade teacher who was very concerned with the stress level of her students the day of their testing. Turned out they all passed.


I do care about what's happening in my kids schools. I have met teachers who have no business teaching and I have met teachers that will undoubtedly leave a positive lasting impression on the kids they teach. I'd really like to see them weeded out for sure. And I'd like to see smaller classrooms and give teachers the option of refusing to teach kids who are constantly interrupting the learning process.

that's about it for this Bush supporter.......

Absolutely!

Okay, in response to yourlastmistake, I believe I posted way back somewhere that there are some issues that I tend to sway Republican on (I'm not a die-hard Democrat), and one of those issues is welfare reform -- and most other economic issues. But, I get mired down in my feelings particularly when it comes to the area of taxes.

There are two types of taxes in this nation: progressive and regressive.

Progressive tax: The tax percentage is figured according to your income (the rich pay more on a progressive tax, the poor pay less).

Regressive tax: The tax is a fixed percentage regardless of your income (sales tax).

On the one hand, I would say that progressive taxes are unfair. Why should you be forced to pay more simply because you have more money?

Then, I would say that regressive taxes are unfair. It is hard for some people in this nation to buy food, but we tax them on food just as much as we tax people who have no problems buying food.

I understand that the rich may or not "deserve" their money. That is not for us to say, as long as they got it honestly. The fact is, though, that we can't ALL be rich. In fact, the distribution of wealth in this nation is like a pyramid, with the highest percentage of the population at the bottom and the smallest at the top. Unfortunately, the wealth is distributed exactly the opposite, with the greatest amount of money being at the top and the least amount at the bottom. And the only way that the folks at the bottom can get any of the wealth at the top is through the "trickle-down" method of taxes. The rich pay a lot in taxes, and the poorest of the poor get massive returns.

I can't help but wonder why the rich complain so much when they are taxed more and the poor are taxed less. It's as if they don't want the wealth going ANYWHERE, especially to the poor, working people who keep this nation operating. But, then again, I can't say: "You should pay more taxes! Help out the nation, help our poor, working-class people!" What they should do with their money is not for us to say. It is their money, after all.

But, the rich will say: "Look, my family worked hard to amass this wealth, and I worked hard to build on it. If you want WEALTH in this country, you have to work for it!" I argue with this as well. Nobody works harder in this nation than the working class. And it certainly isn't that difficult to build on your wealth once you have it. Just invest it and let it accrue intrest.

So, I would like to hear some thoughts on taxes in the nation. This would help me really decide where I need to go with this. Should I resort to utilitarianism with this issue as well? Taxing the rich more so that more can go to the poor seems like the lesser of the two evils (the other being to give the rich tax breaks, and keep our regressive taxes fully as they are. Personally, I would like to see the nation take regressive taxes off of necessities like food. Tax the nation for their food? That's almost evil.)

Gothic-Chick: Accountability in failing schools is a horrible idea. Especially when that accountability is put on the faculty and administration. A large percentage of our failing schools are failing because they serve low-income, poverty areas. The kids from these households have a completely different set of values than you or I, and, unfortunately, education figures in very low on this list of values. Most of them figure that they aren't going to get a decent job anyway (which is true), so why bother busting your ass to get a good education? And, unfortunately, you can't get it into these kids that education is more than just preparing for a good job, and that getting a good job is the smallest value of a good education. You can't tell them that. Believe me, I have tried.

Accountability should be heaviest on the student and on the parent of the student. Most parent-teacher nights, I will sit there for three hours, failing kids all over the place in my gradebook, and maybe three parents will come through my door, all of them parents of passing children. Sad, but true.

And you're right, high-stakes testing is horrible as well. For one, standardized tests do little to show all that the child has learned. They test to see if the child can remember facts. That is all. But you also raised a good point when you said that you have known very smart people choke on tests. This is true! The higher the stakes, the more stress is involved, the worse the student is going to do. Plain and simple. We can keep lowering the bar on these tests, but doing that just defeats the whole purpose of administering the test to begin with!

And I agree that the state of education in this country was pretty bad before Bush intervened, but I'm afraid his "solution" made it worse. The top educators and education professionals in the nation tried to inform him on the pointlessness of his act, but he just couldn't see it.

When he was elected, one of my English Ed. professors at the University came to class wearing all black, as if in mourning. He knew Bush would screw it up, and he did.

Growing up in Department Oof Defense schools, i had to take CTBS standardised tests my whole childhood. They blew a week on those things every year. I always scored extremely high, especially in English and Science, but they never did anything, as far as i can tell.

I caught a lot of shit from my parents because my scores didnt really reflect my grades. I was smarter than my grades would indicate. Yes, i was very apathetic towards school. i learned more on my own, anyway.

I'm not sure what my point was, but all i ever saw as a result of these tests was arrogant smart kids and slower kids with even less self esteem.

Hey we all have to rant at times! I agree with you 100% , i fucking HATE politicians! And I hate that we ONLY have 2 choices! I'm registered as a Libertarian, unfortunately I think this country is a long ways away from a third party ever getting elected. Even though the particular party i'm registered with has increased in numbers by 1/4 % over the last four years.

Ya but IM not running for president:rolleyes:

I will respond to the rest of your points when im not multitasking to this degree....but i HAD to address that right there....