Religious Extremity is their reason...WE didn't give that to them...ANY religion can be twisted to an extreme, and become a dangerous thing...Even Christianity...

Al Qeida takes the Koran of a peaceful religion, and interprets it as "Kill the non-believers", which goes against everything the Koran teaches...It DOES say to defeat your enemy (America is the enemy because we are "immoral"), but it ALSO says that not ONE innocent thing should be harmed in doing so...Not one innocent person, not a tree, etcetera...Basically, the Koran says the EXACT same things that the Christian Bible does , and the Christian bible(which states, for ONE example, that homosexuals should be brought out into the street and stoned to death...and for another, it allows for the hands of theives to be removed, just like they do in the Middle East... "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out...If thine hand offend thee, cut it off..."...read that entire passage for details) can be interpretted in a dangerous, destructive, brutal, hateful manner as well...

Extremism is dangerous in ANY form

Having a few friends who spent time in Europe and watching British TV do not give an accurate count of how other people view America.

We have to fight this war against terrorism.... Unless we want to sit back and wait until the savages figure out a way to kill us all.

Utopia doesn't exist! And I do believe your dead wrong... The citizens of Iraq have been waiting for the West to come save them since before you were born... It is apparent that there is alot you don't know.

What I meant by "those people" was Terrorists! and yes they are promised 72 virgins in heaven for strapping on a bomb and driving into a crowd. They do not think the same way we do.

If you want to have an intelligent conversation, I suggest you pick up a History book or two first.

You are sadly misinformed.. Terrorists are terrorists because they have twisted a religious belief and think all non Muslims should die... WTF does that have to do with foreign policy????

Al Qeida is to Muslim

as, KKK is to Christianity

Hiding behind religion is one of the primary ways to wage war. More people have died in the name of God, (or by what ever name you prefer, or don't) The Crusades are a good example.

If you READ my post, you would see that i said there would ALWAYS BE fighting over there (that would be the OPPOSITE of a UTOPIA, i dont even know where you got that) there will NEVER be peace over there, with or without our occupation over there.....THAT was my point....

Ya and they were so greatfull they killed our soldiers and dragged their corpses through the cities in exhultation....if you think they are all happy and praising america for being over their apparently there is alot YOU don't know...damn and right after i got done commending you in another thread....

true,true.........

once again........ true,true

I'm not voting for Bush and here is are my reasons:

A) He lied to the American People about the 'Weapons of Mass Destruction"

B) He started a war in a country that HAD NOTHING to do with the attack on America on Sept 11th

C) He has ties to Al Qeida ....

D) He's a greedy son of a bitch, who just wants more oil money

E) He started a war to get revenge, for a man he believes tried to assasinate his father

F) He's put our country into more debt than any other President.

G) He believes the Patriot Act is required

H) He's trying to cover his own ass, by blaming the CIA and other governmental agencies

I) and not really a good reason...but

HE's a STUPID DUMB ASS!!

What I meant by Utopia is exactly what you said, there will never be peace over there with or without military presence.

Thug terrorists killing American soldiers is also not a good measurement for how the people in Iraq feel about us being there.


I can hardly contain myself waiting for the new debate forum. I assure you we will meet again in there and have lots and lots of stuff to disagree on.

It's gonna be so much fun blasting your kind of thinking with concrete facts .......... There is an entire corner of my brain just overflowing with the stuff.

Utopia: An ideally perfect place, especially in its social, political, and moral aspects.

Dystopia: An imaginary place or state in which the condition of life is extremely bad, as from deprivation, oppression, or terror.
A work describing such a place or state: “dystopias such as Brave New World” (Times Literary Supplement).

If your gonna "blast my kind of thinking" at least get your literary terms in order before you do. It somewhat hurts your credibility....;)

I have to agree with you Arioch, our foreign policy does help fuel foreigns hatred of our country. I know for one, that if I lived in another country and believed we could solve our problems on our own, I'd be extremely pissed off, when a 'more powerful' country sticks their nose into our business...

Also we have to remember that the people who attacked us are extremists, not the majority of a people who worship a peaceful religion.

No matter what the US Govt does there will always be people who hate us because of:

A) Our Freedoms

B) Our 'so called' sinful state

c) Occupation

Exactly, us being over there is not going to magically cure the world of U.S. hatred...its just ignorant to think that...

George Carlin said it best: "What? They have bigger dicks than us? BOMB THEM!"

A line from his stand up comedy when speaking of Bush and the U.S. government in general.

Carlin is the shit! I love what he says about advertising lol...

I am aware of what Utopia means... You must have a dictionary on your desktop. My reference to it was right on!

Let me explain it for you real slow....

You said...
"I'm sorry but this, nor any other wars are gonna keep the middle east peaceful and content. These countries have ALWAYS fought with each other and ALWAYS will. This occupation we are no exercising isn't going to change that, and certainly not their opinion of us (at least not in any good way, they don't even want us there)."


and I said...

"Utopia doesn't exist! " meaning yeah your right the middle east will never be peaceful.

hope this helps......... Oh and I hope you don't mind that I fixed a few spelling errors and typo's in your quote before I pasted it in this thread. I left the gonna because I like that variation of "going to" and use it often myself ..

This is you AGREEING with me??You got some fucked up ways of making an argumentive post lady...

this is bordering on ridiculousness!!! You conveniently left out the rest of that....


"Utopia doesn't exist!

And I do believe your dead wrong... The citizens of Iraq have been waiting for the West to come save them since before you were born"


I separated it to help you understand.


Good grief!

Well, in MY experience, when one agrees with anothers post, they usually dont SCREAM IT AT THEM! with an exclamation point, and they usually give some acknowledge ment to the previous point agreed upon... for example:

"I agree, utopia doesn't exist"

Just so that it doesnt appear you are arguing the fact that it doesnt exist against me, which was my point in the first place....
It was just your wording...

Settle down GC, its just a internet forum...:rolleyes:

Come on man, are you really going to try and tell me how I should use punctuation marks???

Thanks for the suggestion though, I don't think I need it! <--- not meaning I'm YELLING it at you, just that I am EXCLAIMING that I don't need your advice on how to express myself.


anything else???

Well, just trying to help you be understood. As, you must admit, the phrasing of that was pretty vague.

Just trying to help you out, as you fixed all my grammatic errors in quoting me;) ...

Just trying to help you out, as you fixed all my grammatic errors in quoting me;) ... [/B][/QUOTE]


As I was trying to help you.. It was the least I could do after you took the time to look up the definition of Utopia to share with me..

Well i knew utopia quite well....it was the spelling of dystopia that necessitated my visit to dictionary.com ....really it wasn't that much work lol...

Don't really have much else to add pertaining our little conversation....

I just wanted to get the last word in LOL!

I can allow that....:p ...

Kids gees i thought they were 18. Also he never started a draft therfore it was voluntary. Also by any chance are you micheal moore

Most of the people in the military these days are there to pay for college. Bush kind of fucked up their plans. Granted, he cant be faulted for calling people to do what they signed up for, but dont mistake it for "voluntary".

For the record, I lived 9 years of my life in Europe and yes, most other countries DO dislike America immensly, even our allies. I have heard it from their own mouths, there is no better proof than that. (for the record, i appreciate all of the non-americans in here never once going off on an "America sucks" tangent)

I dont like Bush one bit. Nor Cheney. I am not "Liberal", nor am i "Conservative". I am Independant. i think for myself. I am immune tio both political party's influence. Bush is an uneducated spoiled moron. He has a Falwellesque way of using his religion to justify his decisions. And i agree, the current crop of Republicans in high office are more facist than they are "American". Freedom, of speech, of thought AND the right to take care of ourselves and families is what this country is ALL about.

You call Democrats socialists. Denying a person the right to make decisions about her life, or an adult to make a decision about what kind of entertainment they want is the hallmark of a facist dictatorship, not "The American way". Is Bush a good boy now because he found god? Even though he used Coke and and got a drunk driving charge in college?

I guess not. "He was young." Forgivable if you back the guy, but if a girl goes out and gets laid (or raped in some opinions), she doesnt get any time off for good behavior.

I always find it interesting when a pro-lifer justifies the killing of another person... I guess life ends after you're born. ABortion is wrong, but war is right :rolleyes: .

Dont get me wrong. i am an Air force brat. i spent the first 17 years of my life growing up on military bases. I support the military 100%, andf when they got sent overseas, they had my full backing. The president doesnt, didnt, and never will (as long as it is Georgy) because he is an idiot with Horrible motives. I wouldnt trust him to remember the value of a quarter, let alone with my life or my country.

You seem to forget, the people in here from America, OWN America. I want the government in general to remember, they work for us, not vice-versa. George isnt the head of the country, he is our figurehead. Congress is OUR tool.

And i will not have my employees telling me what i am to do with my life.

In the last election, NEITHER of the candidates got my vote. i voted for John Mccain. Why? Because he gets under EVERYONE'S skin. he is a republican, but the republicans dont like him because he doesnt follow their rules. Granted, he worked with Joe Lieberman and ms Dole to try and ban violent video games, but find me one person that agrees with you 100% on EVERYTHING. I thought he was basically a good man, which is rare in politics.


Sorry about the length of this post. i also apologise for any hostility that may habve come through, but reading through the thread, politeness has gone bye bye.

If anyone thinks i have my head up my ass, i am interested to hear your reasons.

I, too, am neither Democrat nor Republican. However, I tend to agree more with the Democrat's side than the Republican's, and hence, I vote Democrat almost every time. I usually don't vote outside of the Democrat/Republican duality simply because the people who usually vote independent would have voted Democrat if they had to choose between just the two. And this is why I think Gore lost the Presidency ... too many traditionally Democratic voters going independent.

But I agree with practically all of what Vod just typed.

:D

Hence "No one agrees 100% with anyone" :D

OK then here it is....

You have no way of knowing why most people joined the military. Our Military is voluntary! Everyone who joins signs on the dotted line volunteering to fight if called upon.

Anyone who joins for college money is an idiot. Just another bullshit democrat way of thinking... Hmmm? how can I get free college money? Oh I know, I'll join the military and let tax dollars pay for it. hmmm? how can I get more handouts? I know, I'll vote for the democrats so they can take more money from hardworking folks and give it to me so I don't have to work hard.


Spending time in Europe does not give you the knowledge to state "most other countries" hate America. If your speaking of other countries governments, your dead wrong. If your trying to speak for the citizens of each country, well that's just silly.

There are millions of people around the world who respect America and are grateful for it's role in the world. Of course there are also people who hate us. Doesn't really matter though, they all come calling when they need help.

Like it or not, America leads the world and without our help (on many levels) whole Countries would collapse.

Comparing abortion to war is laughable.. Do you really not see the difference? Of course there are innocent people dying in wars.... How can you compare that to someone killing a baby because they didn't use birth control?

I don't think anyone other than radical Muslims thinks war is right. Unfortunately it is necessary in this world. History has proven that again and again.

You can thank war for your pampered life in America.

Gore lost the presidency because he had less votes! I hate it when people say that independent votes would have been Gores. That's just ridiculousness at it's finest!

How do you justify using rough generalizations, and then "correct" me for mine? Obviously i cant know what everyone thinks, BUT the generasl citizenship (in my experience) of most countries appear to think that America is arrogant and constantly butting in to other people's business. Also, on what experience do you base your astute observation? Are you well travelled? Have you lived in another country? Just curious since you pointed out earlier that one person's opinion was baseless because they had not been outside of America, yet mine appears just as baseless in your eyes for the exact opposite reason.

"Bullshit democrat way of thinking". That's an informed opinion. I imagine real-world discussions with you resort to you shouting your ideas loudly so that the other person cant get a word in edgewise and gets irritated an leaves, therefore you dont have to hear their stance and can go on in your self-righteous indignation. Or, i could be wrong. Thtat is just the impression you are giving.

Also, in case you havent noticed, the attitude of the government very rarely reflects the feelings of the populace at large. I DO agree that a large part of why some of the world's most successful nations are the way they are is because of our influence (Germany and Japan are 2 examples). that doesnt mean they all love us.

We ARE also the only remaining Superpower on earth, and this is the root of a lot of our unpopularity. Rather than being seen as benevolent leaders, we are seen as arrogant, pushy bullies. And fundamentalist muslims are just the latest crop of people that cant stand us. And many MANY people and countries want to start war. Why else would they have such large standing armies when they dont need one? The only thing holding them back is the fact that any act of violence these days brings the UN and America down on them like a swarm of wasps.

This IS a good thing i believe. Being good out of fear of punishment isn't GOOD, but its a start.

Also, the "You need us" approach isnt going to make us any more freinds. Try telling a Canadian that they Need us to cover their ass. Or an English person. So what if onpaper it is true? so what if America didnt back many countries they would be easy fodder for their neighbors? Do you want the cops swinging by every so oftenreminding you that without them, someone could come into your house and steal all your things and you could do nothing? Of course not.

I compar ewar to abortion because abortion is considered murder, but innocents killed in war are "acceptable losses". Again, if they aborted a baby, they would be evil bastards, but if they blew up a building and killed 20, they made a slip up. Believ me, you dont spend your life growing up in the military and not know a thing or two about war.

I know what war has done for us. i also know the difference between World War 2 and Vietnam. I knwo the difference between fighting for whats right, and fighting to prevent a nation from converting to a system of government that we dont want them to have,but they could care less about.

Iraq was a 50/50 war. Saddam needed tobe taken down, he was a bad person doing bad things. BUT, we should not be lied to. i would have backed Bush 100% if he had said "I dont ike him, he tried to have my dad killed, and you all KNOW you want him taken down." Fuck weapons of mass destruction. Kick his ass because it needs to be kicked.

I thank the people who FOUGHT for this country for my life, not the wars they fought. "A true warrior prepares for battle, but prays for peace." You might want to put a little more thought into your words before you use them, as you have advise3d others to do. War doesnt do shit but kill people. its the people who were in them that actually accomplished something.

And as far as the last election went, Bush did not have the superior number. No one knows for sure, and it is a moot point anyway because that was 4 years ago and he has already been in office to do his damage.

The fact that you don't realize that the majority of Independent Party voters are liberals, and therefore would have probably voted for Gore had they had no other choice is even more ridiculous.

Good show, Vod.

I'm just glad that if we are going to be ridiculous, at least were are of a high caliber apprently :)

And thank you :)


I didnt particularly appreciate being spoken(?) to as if i am an ignorant child. i thought i was more than giving in the abortion thread with gothic chick and i am trying to remain above the insults. i wish she could do the same :rolleyes:

I am, however, not surprised. Bwind is always rational and polite, why cant the people that agree with him be?

Ya she does that...a little bit of RottingEye syndrome....

LMAO!!! I mean what can you say to that but LMAO!!!



THANK YOU!!! It appears that since we have BOTH incountered this from different sources throughout our lives, we are BOTH subject to baseless opinions according to her...:rolleyes:



Agreed. It was the fact that we were lied to and mislead for his political agenda that pisses me off....not the fact that we went after sadam, who, ill agree, needed to be taken down.....but WTF couldn't the fucking cokehead just be honest about it?

And do damage he did. As an educator (and I'm surprised nobody else comments on this point) I can professionally vouch for the fact that Bush screwed up this nation's public education system BIG TIME with his "No Child Left Behind" act. As a teacher, I have studied theories and practices of education from rote memorization to constructivism. I know the positives and negatives of almost every educational philosophy put into print, and also know that the past 20 years of research into learning and learning styles has shown conclusively that standardized testing does NOT help education, and, in fact, is detrimental to student learning. So what does Bush do in his infinite hick-wisdom? He makes it a law that ALL students MUST pass a series of state-administered standardized tests before they are allowed to graduate. Now, teachers (just to keep their jobs), have been forced to throw out all of their ideals regarding independent thought and study on the part of the student, have regressed from student-centered constructivist classrooms to the traditional "teacher as dictator" classrooms, and have basically turned our schools from progressive, cooperative-learning institutions into ruler-slapping, repeat- and-recite idiot factories. I am a teacher. I know.

If anything irks me about Bush, it is this. We seriously need to get him out of office before he starts meddling in anything else he's too uneducated to know shit about.

At least here in san diego... so many of the students are failing these tests that theyve lowered the bars to 7th and 8th grade levels,

and stil... Many are failing!! pretty funny

but hey... more drones to add to the fighting force right? fuck doctors, teachers, scientist... WE NEED MORE SOLDIERS!!!

DIE STINGY DIE!!!! (still on my mantra from earlier, in caseu take that too personally mr stinge. got nothin but love for ya)

Many of the students are failing these tests because teachers have been taught how to teach according to recent educational research. Now, they have to teach to the test ... which is something they never learned to do (which, in fact, they were taught was a terrible way to teach.) We have all had to attend workshops on how to teach to the standardized tests, and basically stuff our four years of college training in the trash. It's completely horrifying.