Despare, good call. I don't need to repeat for the billionth time what I got my undergraduate degree in at uni and how I'd like to get my PhD in the same field, but I could talk about it all day. You wouldn't believe how fascinating the topic is, if people actually talked about it. The thing is, a lot of people are sort of put off by the subject (especially during these times).

By in large, most of the responses that were give, especially Sam's, described agnosticism: the concept that there is or if there is a higher power/consciousness at work human beings cannot even begin to comprehend it, so why bother. (IMO, you're already plugged in anyway)

I really thought what Urge said was cool. You (Urge) said that your morals came from you and you didn't need some one or a book to tell you. Honestly, I think that is true in most people; it's human nature. Those people that don't have that particular drive, tend to be aberhant members of society, and thus it is human nature to have that desire to force them out of the human society as a whole. Survival instincts...

There in lies the problem that I have with "religion." It isn't the belief in Deity. It's the heirarchical pattern that presupposes that all but a select few are in the know, while the rest (about 90%) are disconected and need to be told, led, etc. The truth is everyone in whatever way is in the know. It's instinctive.

I will say that those fuckers who sale themselves, the planet (habits, wildlife, the benefit of other human beings despite their own morality have disconnected themselves from the internal consciousness or their own humanity... if that makes any sense... I quess I just don't understand those people).

Haha...No...Rory does that...Not ME :p

Pinkerton- Who'd win in a wrestling match, Lemmy or God?
omcdave- Lemmy.
Pinkerton-buzzzzzzz*imitates buzzer*
omcdave-God?
Pinkerton-Wrong, dickhead, trick question. Lemmy IS God.

What kind of questions?

Editted out of curiosity: What have you and your co worker been discussing? (Studied Islam, myself, so am curious).

Okay then.

Assuming that the foundation of Chriatian beliefs (either arian or Roman-Catholic, take your pick) are true; Judas gave at least as great a sacrifice as Jesus, agree or disagree?

Actually heard a sermon on that once. According to the Rev. it was a sacrifice, and that Judas went to Heaven.

He had to have done the right thing. Besides, Jesus is supposed to be forgiving, so therefore, would have probably told Judas in the afterlife, "Dude, don't sweat it. You did what you supposed to. You had to do the dirty work for the whole thing to go down."

Well, in most of the Christian-related literature I've seen, Judas is in the lowest depths of hell. That's the first I've heard of anybody saying he went to heaven.

"if (almost) all of the holy books were supposedly written by god ..

why is there not one mention of the dinosaur."

The holy books are supposed to hold lessons for mankind. What lessons would we learn from the dinosaur?

I would think eternal damnation for saving mankind would be the greater sacrifice, yes. Jesus is the son of god, Judas is forever burning in the worst part of hell. Come on who's really suffering for our sins?

Exactly my thoughts.

Someone said he went to hell for committing suicide, but then Moses killed people when they were worshipping the golden calf, and he went to heaven

I've seen a program (don't remember the title, probably the history channel) that Jesus asked that Judas betray him.By not doing so he would be defying the lord and that he was heartbroken to be handed the task.Hence he bought his way into heaven.I don't know the validity of this and i'm not trying to argue, its just something i've seen.

when did we find out what caused their extinction? Maybe god was like "What the fuck are these things doing here?!" Then he stomped them all like bugs. :)

Ok, I should point out now that I don't think Pat wrote the bible, so really this is all purely for sake of argument.

Animals are mentioned in the bible a lot, sure, but AFAIK there are no passages that are all animal, that humans didn't interract with. It's tough to connect with something like a dinosaur, unless you can turn it into a cartoon and dumb it down with endless personifications, and since the overall message in the bible is the more important thing, why risk alienating people in the name of historical accuracy?

You stick to your pathetic fables of global warming and asteroids. The big stomp theory is the only logical way it could have happened. :p

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that one

Yeah, but I didn't say that there was historical accuracy in the bible. I said (well, inferred) that historical accuracy (ie: the dinosaurs) was downplayed in favor of making the bible more palatable and relatable by the masses, and that the overall message was more important than making it historically accurate.

as saint augustine reasoned - humans are imperfect, human language is imperfect . . . but GOD is perfect. . . therefore there will always be some slippage in biblical texts. for augustine this meant that priests must continually study the language of the bible to seek the truer meanings and shuffle through the human imperfections

arguably something perfect could only create something imperfect because to create something else perfect would be to create itself

but we're talking here about absolute perfection - which suggests, as well, absolute completeness - therefore, there could not be two perfect spheres (in the sense of Perfect spheres). if God is the absolute essence of pure Perfection - then there can be nothing else that is perfect that is not God.

See, now we're getting into the "Can God make a rock so big that even he can't lift it" territory, and that's one of the dumbest questions I've ever heard. Ok, Pat is perfect. We're imperfect? Why would something perfect make something imperfect? Why would something perfect make something that is also perfect? Why make anything at all?

without flaws if flawless - Perfect, at least as i'm using it here, implies not simply that something is itself without flaws, but that it is the ultimate, pure and absolute expression of its being. . . thus, any existing thing - particularly in material or real sense - is not perfect because it exists in its own finite and limited existence. . . God, being omnipresent and infinite is more than merely flawless - God is perfection itself and it is precisely this PERFECTION against which all else is imperfect.

as for STE's comment - i'm not trying to head that direction (nor for that matter seriously attempting to persuade someone to believe or not believe) - i was just recounting some of the classic philosophical arguments about the nature of the divine

urge is exactly right (as kierkegaard would agree) that belief is the only thing available to we the imperfect (as only the perfect could have perfect knowledge) and belief always requires a blind leap of faith. we are, as nietzsche so rightly put it, "the bungled and the botched" - i always find comfort in that idea.

The "Why" questions are generally where I take issue with most forms of organized religions. Because they all try to give an answer, while at the same time saying "God" is omnipotent, all-knowing, existing forever, etc. Yeah, Pat is all those things, and YOUR dumb ass has even the slightest idea why it does anything.

Here's a 'why' question; Why does it matter?

i suppose it matters because the vast majority of the planet's population have deep, fervent - at times violent and almost always conflicting views of what god is and in many ways those views continue to drive much of the world's economic, political and cultural life

That's basically saying "it matters because people believe that it matters."

Personally, I don't think it matters. We're never going to know, and even if at some point we do know, we won't be in any position to do anything about it, and at that point we won't really care anyways.

If I die and I find that there is no God at least nobody will be able to remind me that I was wrong. :p

i am going out to get wasted, so i cant dive into this topic with the attention it deserves, hopefully when i come home i just pass out because giving it undivided drunken attention is not what it needs, especially not since im drinking torques tonight. So here's some food for thought instead:

http://www.desiconnectionusa.com/gal...vin_Carter.jpg

i was raised christian but i dont go to church..i beileve there is a god and heaven but i hate ass holes who shove shit down people's throat's

think about this....why would people make a book about god(holy bible) and these god like storys if it wasnt true???

I have a book about dragons ;)

good for you

yep, Pascal's Wager

if you were to believe this lame question then you believe that
Harry Potter and all his wierd adventures are true..
after all..his books out sold the bible in some countries.
And thats another thing..
why do churches charge for gods services??(refer to sunday donations)
he isn't getting the money..it lines the pockets of the pastor.
and before you dispute this..
Island churches (samoan ..tongan etc)..
charge thier parishers 55% of thier weekly income each..
it is marked down in a ledger and those who do not pay are shamefully
mentioned after each sermon in front of the whole church..and these families
are made to double it the following week.

so do i to be honest.
I remember when i 1st joined HDC ..one of the threads was about religion
and abortion..what a hell of a stir that caused.

EXACTLY!!!

errrrmmmmmmm..
yeah and no.

god is dead, and you have killed him

i was just quoting nietzsche: "the madman ran through the streets crying out, 'God is dead, and you have killed him!'"

i do, actually, believe in God, but am not one to make a crusade out of it - to each their own in the inexplicable world we live in

i'm joining the new shanks religion - if God is a DJ then at least we can dance!

Faithless knows best.....


http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7...ithlessks5.jpg